Quitters ruin this contest....

[renman]

Greg,
It is posts like this that require me respond.
There are numerous points being made here... attributed to me, that completely misrepresent my position on this issue.

Originally posted by Tamuscarecrow:
[QB] RENMAN, I have been discussing this and you don't want to hear what I have to say.

I can remember one post from you in the thread (a page or two ago) and I absolutely WANT to hear what you (or anyone else) have to say even if I disagree. Can't we have gentlemans disagreements without hostility?

This is a game played by humans and therefore, to take the humans out of the game and say, "You know what, if I don't like your lineup, I want someone to program the computer to change it", sucks.

Here is a PERFECT example of my point from many pages ago when I said for some unknown reason people make DRAMATIC exaggerations about the point being discussed and take things off on tangents. This has never been about "not liking a lineup..." or "taking the human element out of this..." Every week we see teams we hope will lose facing lineups and lineup decisions we dont like or agree with. That has NEVER been brought up here.

This has always been 100% about a team that is lucky enough to draw a quitter team when THEIR LINEUP ISN'T ENTERED even though everyone in the league can plainly see viable players sit on the bench. So you are actually not even playing the team in its entiretly. You believe that practice MUST GO ON in arguably the most prestigious fantasy football contest in the market?

Why? Because if we were to go back to the archives you will find this topic taking up 25 pages every year.

How many other non issues take up 20 pages every year? It is a REAL PROBLEM no matter how much 3-5 posters try to invent that it isn't. The day will come this will profoundly hurt a league race or title and we don't need any more things to ruin an NFFC experience and prevent them from returning to this event the following year.

I know in either 2005 or 2006 I started a thread for all-play because the team that was 11th in total points in our league won the $5k because back then, H2H was king, and the guy won because of the luck of the schedule.

I know all about that as I have been on the short end of bad h2h luck many times too. I get it.

Let's face it, Ren, you can't take every single luck factor or human factor out of the game just for the sake of a handful of people who think this is unfair or that is unfair.

Another DRAMATIC exaggeration that misrepresents my point. I do NOT want to take "every luck factor out of the game..." Guess what, even though I have been hurt by bad h2h luck numerous times I was one of the guys arguing that we MUST KEEP a solid H2H portion in this event because it is the essence of fantays football. So my position is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of what you attributed to me. This is a normal occurance on message boards.

If you don't like the way the game is played, either don't play or get over it.

Some people argued for something called KDS and something called 3RR.. others ATTACKED them... and could have said "if you dont like how the game is played, don't play.. or get over it..." How did that work out? Again, I ask.. why can't someone discuss and debate an issue... even if the thread goes 100 pages... without people attacking over it? The better point is if you don't like a thread or topic of discussion.. how about not posting in it? It is not like this discussion is going on at the draft.. is real loud.. and is disrupting things for others... this is one discussion, in one thread, on a message board that in theory should be for such discussions. Whats the big deal?

But whether it's teams who aren't fielding legit teams because they either quit or have been bought off by a competitive team, or whether it's referees who I've wanted to sue for costing me $5k with a call they admitted was bad and apologized for the next day, or whether it was a player costing me $100k by pulling a 2008 Westbrook or 2009 Jones-Drew and falling down at the 1, the fact is, this is a game organized and put on by humans and played by humans and therefore will never be perfect. End of story once you accept that.

I am not the type of guy to have a probem with ANY of the things you just listed. I am the epitome of someone who accepts what is and should be PART OF THE GAME. I also never need the thing to be "perfect" (another dramatic exaggeration). I (and others) simply believe the issue can be made BETTER and the NFFC will be a constantly evolving entity (as it has been since year one) over the years thanks in part to these kind of discussions that seem to be so bothersome to you. I don't believe this problem MUST BE "part of the game"

I am willing to bet that in a few years we WILL have something in place to address the practice of teams starting clear zero's in their lineup when ON THEIR TEAM is a viable replacement. Meaning the team who was lucky enough to draw them isn't facing their entire team unlike others in the league had to. So no matter how hostile you get about this issue... you are likely going to see it get addressed in some way large or small.

The only cure for this is all-play, so that everyone gets to play Mr. I-Don't-Care-Anymore when he decides to ignore his team. If/When you can sell FANBALL on that over h2h, then your issue will be solved. Until then, forget it and get over it.

The funniest thing about this is that people misinterpret my being a regular contributor to this topic and discussion as being someone who has been burned by this issue or even has extremely strong feelings about it.. Simply not the case. I think ways to make the NFFC better are worth talking about and even debating. I guess that makes me a bad guy.

[renman]

Originally posted by TOXIC ASSETS:
Some good points have been made on this topic. I am now thinking that the only thing that STATS should do is eliminate bye week and IR players from the weekly default roster. In other words, players who are not going to play and are guaranteed to put up a zero. Players listed as "out" will not known until Friday, which is too late in the week. I would leave those decisions up to the owners.

I look at it this way. This contest should be as much like real football as possible without taking the "human element" out of it. In the NFL, 11 guys line up on offense and 11 on defense each week. Nobody plays with less than 22 players. Therefore nobody in the NFFC should play with less than a full roster because of bye weeks or IR players. But other than that, leave the decisions up to the individual owners. That seems to be a resonable compromise. Bingo!

That is all anyone is saying!

[renman]

Originally posted by Ugly Yellow Tomatoes:
quote:Originally posted by Renman:
why cant this be discussed...even at length via a long, many page discussion/debate without people getting hostile? it boggles my mind. To answer your question.

People get hostile "with you" because you repeat yourself over and over and over again. You can't understand how someone could disagree with you ... so you assume they must not understand. This causes you repeat yourself because you figure if they could just understand your point of view they would surely change their point of view to yours.

Look how many posts you have in this topic and see how many new ideas you actually offered. You seem like a decent relatively bright guy ... you just don't seem to understand someone can fully understand your point of view and still disagree with it. It's almost like you don't think that's possible (if they REALLY understood your point of view)

Just my 2 cents.

Big Mike [/QUOTE]Ugly,

VERY few people get hostile with me. The overall hostility here is part of message board culture and something I was dumb enough to engagee in briefly years ago and never will again. I have seen you be a big part of it.. along with many others.

I am not only perfectly fine with people disagreeing with me.. I welcome it.. I want it. Because without it there can be no useful debate. This thread is the best one yet I can remember on this topic. Easily 10-15 ways or concepts were thrown out and discussed regarding ways to deal with this issue. That is a good thing.. and that happened in part because I and others fueled this discussion.

I am a decent guy (some would argue better than decent) and I believe relatively bright and you could not be more wrong if you tried regarding my comfort with people disagreeing with me. But if they do, do I not have the right to give a counter argument back to them? I have actually changed MY POINT OF VIEW (some) on this based on good ideas and good counter points I have read here. For the record I have no problem with the people who think quitting should be an acceptable part of this premier event and that there is nothing we can do about it and the luck of drawing a quitter team is something that should be part of the contest.

Having said that... I am all but done with this topic (unless some good discussion about the topic at hand begins again..)

Time to hope in the car and root for my WR to help lead me to a title today... Enjoy the day everyone and have a wonderful Thanksgiving!

[ November 26, 2009, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Renman ]

[mikeybok]

Originally posted by Renman:

I am a decent guy (some would argue better than decent) and I believe relatively bright We finally agree on something! Although ... I believe I said this before you did.

Originally posted by Renman:

people disagreeing with me. But if they do, do I not have the right to give a counter argument back to them?
Again ... to try to answer your question Renman style.

First ... someone posting thoughts that don't agree with yours ... it does not automatically engage you in a conversation. If Joe Blow starts a thread "Are dogs or Cats more lovable". If you post Dogs. and in the very next post I post Cats. It doesn't mean I want to debate you (or even care what you think). Maybe I want to post my thoughts to Joe. Just because my post follows your doesn't mean I am posting to you or starting a conversation or a debate with you. Sure maybe it does ... but IMHO you shouldn't always assume it engages you in a debate that needs to be responded to by you. Especially when you are just repeating you previous post (as if I didn't see you Dog post).

Unless Renman or James is in my post (or I quote you and address you specifically) ... You are unlikely the focus of my post (that's Just how a message board works ... it's the same for me and everyone else). most of what is posted here is not meant for one specific person. So you probably shouldn't respond to them like they are all meant for you. If you do ... some people won't like it.

Here's an example of why.

If You post you like 3RR and you give a long list of reasons why ... and 10 other people post they don't like 3RR ... Of course You have a right to post after each and ever poster by repeating the reasons why you said you like 3RR (basically repeating your first post 10 more times because you have a right to debate them all for disagreeing with you). If everyone posted in this manner and there were 10 people with each point of view ... every post would automatically get 10 responses ... which would shortly turn into 100 responses and than 1000 more posts with everyone repeating them self to each person only one time. Yet ... just having each person repeating them self to each post one time generates 1111 posts. If a new poster actually came up with a third point of view ... it would be lost in the 1111 posts.

Could you imagine if everyone was compelled to re post their thoughts every time someone posted a thought that didn't agree with theirs? (Rhetorical question) It might be OK if someone was in a private conversation with you ... but it is really not OK an a message board IMO.

Just some food for thought.

I truly hope your Thanksgiving was nice Renman.

Take Care

[pizzatyme]

I LOVE LAMP!

[Glenneration X]

Originally posted by Just Russ:
I LOVE LAMP! I prefer overhead lighting.

By the way Russ.....congrats on finishing first at the FFPC....nicely done.

Glenn

[RWyatt]

Dogs

[pizzatyme]

Originally posted by Glenneration X:
quote:Originally posted by Just Russ:
I LOVE LAMP! I prefer overhead lighting.

By the way Russ.....congrats on finishing first at the FFPC....nicely done.

Glenn [/QUOTE]Thanks Glenn!