Roster Size...

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:10 pm

Originally posted by Indy Rules:
Gordon

Thanks for the reply. Your comments have given away your secret. I think it's great that you can enjoy this league with your brother. So how is NNOY anyway? I'm sure the 2 of you are very close. At the rate that you make friends - you probably have lots of time to pal around.

SHHHH... Your secret is safe here! That's all you can come back with? Better practice next time. Thanks.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:59 pm

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:
You may be confused. Who are you directing this question to? I think everyone read the rules and is playing by them. I (and others) are talking about next year. I don't see the pt you are trying to make. I was directing the question to the people who are attempting to use their draft position as an excuse for their sorry performance this season (not you, Gordon).

As for my point, I don't understand why people are complaining about the lack of RB's. Everyone knew the situation, and every team had ample opportunity to secure two decent backs. To make matters worse, the person who is spearheading the most radical change in league rules (JerseyPaul) used his first three selections on WR's. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:03 pm

Regarding 12-owner leagues, Gordon, can you provide any empirical evidence as to why this will make for a better league? If you can sell me on it, I'll consider hiring you.

skipman · Post by **skipman** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:37 pm

I have played a lot of 10 and 12 man leagues. Personally I like the 14 man league, but as Gekko has stated, actual opinions may vary. I feel like a 14 man league really makes you pay for a mistake. A 12 man league allows some room to work your way out of a mistake and a 10 man league is a joke.

Also, I have played a league for 15 years that allows a "run-and-shoot" offensive. However, the Mouse Davis' of the league gave it up a long time ago because you couldn't score consistently enough to win it all. However, the one place that it is useful is in off weeks. But I think this is a easy cop-out for people that cant feild a line-up.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:39 pm

Originally posted by King of Queens:
Regarding 12-owner leagues, Gordon, can you provide any empirical evidence as to why this will make for a better league? If you can sell me on it, I'll consider hiring you. "better" can have many meanings.

1) better could mean, not having to start r.anderson or some other scum at RB because the talent is more dispersed with 14 teams, as opposed to 12 teams. i have a feeling that most owners aren't paying $1,250+ to do that.

2) could mean having 20 man rosters (which doesn't seem feasible with 14 teams). allowing larger rosters benefits the "knowledgeable" owner on draft day, as opposed to the "lesser" owner obtaining talent via FA.

3) could also mean keeping more teams in the hunt for longer. for example, a team that just lost mcallister or any other top RB/WR would be able to absorb the hit more in a 12 team league because the talent isn't so thin. i'm sure this adds to the "fun/enjoyment" owners get throughout the season. being done by week 3/4/5 (because of injuries) isn't what owners would like to pay big bucks for.

4) who wants to draft 13 or 14th? no one to my knowledge. i did it and it stunk. i think we drafted a competitive team, but we need to get luckier than the teams who drafted 1-8 to do well. wonder what the retention rate for teams drafting 13/14 will be? at the end of the season, i wonder where the 13/14 owners will rank. this could help prove/disprove what i'm saying to a degree. i still say give a person who knows what they're doing a top 1-2 pick, and they will do very well.

there are more reasons as well, but i got to go...my mom is telling me it's bed time.

btw, what would you hire me for?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:05 am

Gordon and everyone else, I just want you to know that I'm reading these threads as intently as everyone else and certainly taking all thoughts into evaluation for 2005. I'm watching this rather than commenting because I want all ideas out on the table and I don't want to influence them either way. But that being said, I do want to comment a little bit here on Gordon's last points to state how our rules this year are making the contest so competitive.

1) Yes, you could start Richie Anderson as your second back this week and be happy. He did just fine last night. A lot of people are complaining about not finding a good No. 2 back, but guys like Thomas Jones, Curtis Martin, Warrick Dunn, Chris Brown and Onterrio Smith are doing just fine and I have a feeling EVERY owner, no matter where they drafted, had shots at these guys after the first round. There WAS strategy involved in picking these solid No. 2 RBs. There was also strategies involved with picking Richie Anderson, Ron Dayne or Tyrone Wheatley later on.

2) You keep proposing a 12-team league and 20 man rosters. That's 240 players. The NFFC has 252 players, which I think benefits the more "knowledgeable" owners that you talk about. Secondly, how you use those 18 picks (do you take 2 TEs, 2 Ks or 2 Ds or handcuff your top backs?) seems to also benefit the more "knowledgeable" owners that you talk about.

3) If you lose McAllister in a 12-team league, it hurts almost as badly as losing him in a 14-team league. The waiver wire is thin either way and I'm not sure you would have handcuffed McAllister with Stecker whether you had 18 picks, 20 picks or 22 picks. Let's be honest about that.

4) I heard this complaint about drafting late in baseball too, and the teams doing the best overall in our contest drafted either first or 15th in the NFBC. It's a deep draft in the NFFC and there are teams doing well from the later end of the draft as John Zaleski showcased last week. While some guys are debating about not being able to get two good RBs in a 14-team league, those who drafted at the end of the first round seemed to have the best chance at getting two good RBs more than those at the top of the draft. I may be proven wrong, but I have a strong feeling there will be league champions from draft spots other than 1 and 2 this year.

Again, I love the discussion about three points: 1) Should we continue to have a tougher, 14-team NFFC league in 2005 or go to 12-team leagues? 2) Should rosters remain at 18 players or move to 20 or possibly fewer than 18?) and 3) Should the starting lineups remain the way they are now or be more flexible with the number of starting RBs, WRs and even the flex position?

I am convinced that every league champion in the NFFC will have EARNED his/her paycheck at season's end. This is not easy and it wasn't intended to be easy. That's what I had in mind when I did the 14-team setup and 13 weeks of regular season competition. Sure, luck is involved when it comes to injuries and draft positions, but we can't all have the first pick and we can't all go injury-free. Hell, I'm 3-0 in one experts league and 0-3 in another. Did I suddenly become stupid over the two days that separated those drafts with almost the same guys or am I having better luck and fortune in one league than the other? I think we all know the answer to that (yes, I got dumber).

The discussions on all of our threads have been productive and professional. You guys are first-class and I mean that. Keep 'em going that way and I can tell you for sure that I'll read every one and take all suggestions into consideration for 2005.

But for 2004, I see some GREAT NFFC races shaping up and I like the format the way we have it. May the best team win and may we analyze every winning strategy and every winning team when all is said and done.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:10 am

Greg,
It’s good to see you are taking everything in.

Ya, Richie Anderson stuck it to me last night. I wonder if any owners even started him. In any event, if he gets only 7 or so touches a game, I think it’s safe to say, he’ll never do what he did last night. There are only 32 teams in the NFL. 4 teams have bye weeks each week. That leaves 28 starting RB for 14 teams. Injuries have depleted the number of starting RB you can count on down to the low 20’s or so. With that the case, some teams are forced to play “scum” at RB. There aren’t enough to go around. You mention Thomas Jones, Curtis Martin, Warrick Dunn, Chris Brown and Onterrio Smith as 2nd RBs. Some teams have them as their 1st RB.

The “knowledgeable” owner benefits because he gets two extra players on his team. Looking at the total number of players drafted from a league perspective doesn’t make sense for this argument. There are 14 teams dividing up the first 240 players selected, as opposed to 12 teams.

Two extra draft slots would enable owners to handcuff more players. Some guy in my NFFC league did draft stecker. At least one owner drafted Boldin last year in a competing event. I believe it was in the last round or 2nd to last round, in a 12 team/20player roster. So increasing roster size can help. Having 3-4 players on a bye week and having another 2-3 injured really makes managing a challenge…could be a nightmare for some folks. I have a feeling some teams are dropping players that should NOT be on the FA wire just because they don’t have the roster space to add a 2nd kicker or 2nd TE for bye weeks.

In baseball you got 23 players in your active line-up. One player makes less of an impact than 1 player on a 10 player football line-up. Having a star get injured for the season hurts you, but the impact isn’t as much in baseball.

Of course all the football league champions won’t come from the #1 or #2 spots. I’m not sure if ALL of those owners are “knowledgeable”.

lichtman · Post by **lichtman** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:39 am

We started Richie Anderson, baby. Last minute switch from ReShard to Richie. All I know is that I drafter McAllister in both the NFFC and Gekko leagues and I am 2-1 in both. Handcuffed Stecker in one, bought him in the other. Also managed to draft Foster in the Gekko league, so in two weeks (after NO bye) I hope to feature a Stecker/Foster backfield.

So far, the draft strategy of stud RB in first round followed by a bevy of WRs followed by a bevy of RB gambles has paid off well (and would have been pure genius has I picked Shawn Alexander instead of McAllister). And with Travis Minor in both leagues and seemingly poised to get another shot at the starting spot, I have an embarrassment of RB mediocrity riches.

[ September 28, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: I Cojones ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:40 am

Phil, you are correct on the depth at running back. The 28 starting NFL running backs you mention include some "scum" because teams like Detroit, Arizona, Tampa Bay and Oakland don't have fantasy stars. But investing in players from all of those teams is part of the strategy of fantasy football. If Kevin Jones comes through you look like a hero and if he doesn't, well, then blame the system.

The teams that have those RBs you mentioned above as their No. 1 backs obviously drafted a WR in the first round or even WR/WR in the first two rounds. Then they did well to grab one of those other RBs later on.

I won't argue what makes a "knowledgeable" owner with you or Gordon. I'll only say that the best owners with the best fortune will win in any system we set up.

Kudos to the guy who drafted Stecker this year and Boldin last year. That's what you should get out of your 18th round pick. I'm not against going to 20 rounds with 14 teams, but if we did that would we have the strategy involved now with FAABs on the likes of Stecker, Lamar Gordon and Kerry Collins? With 280 players gone in the draft as you propose, I think you actually have less chance to recover from an early season injury than you do under the current format. Guys who spent a lot on Boldin last year in the WCOFF were ridiculed, yet it was a great move for them. The Gordon move didn't work out for NFFC owners this year, but who's to say that Gordon couldn't have turned into this year's version of Boldin?

You shouldn't have 3-4 players on the same bye week in the NFFC. With 18 man rosters, everyone should have looked at the bye weeks to make sure they were covered. And yes I believe some players are being cut to make room for a backup TE during a bye week, but again that's all part of the strategy of handling your NFFC roster. It takes more work than just drafting 20 players and plugging in new starting lineups each week.

I'm not disagreeing with your points, just stating that there is definitely more weekly management involved in the NFFC's format than a standard 12-team, 20-round league. It takes a strong draft, a strong draft day strategy, strong in-season roster management, and strong in-season FAAB strategy. It's not your average league.

Finally, I'm interested in the talk about 14 teams and all the strategy involved in the first few rounds. But let's realize that guys like Javon Walker, Reggie Wayne, Roy Williams, Brandon Stokely and even Terry Glenn who were drafted in the middle to late rounds are becoming difference makers in the NFFC more than Priest Holmes is thus far. You still have to draft well for 18 rounds to win your league and the overall title.

Again, good points on all and I don't disagree. But there was a method to this madness when this format was designed.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:01 am

Quick hits...

The current set-up is competitive and I understand there is a reason why you set it up this way.

I'm not proposing having 280 players drafted. 20 team rosters only apply to 12 team leagues.

Bye weeks...you have 18 players on your roster. There are 9 bye weeks. So, once the bye weeks start, on average you have 2 players missing, unless you drop them for non-bye players. On average it's two players, some weeks it could be 0 and others weeks it could be 4.

You can say the same thing about 12 team leagues..."It takes a strong draft, a strong draft day strategy, strong in-season roster management, and strong in-season FAAB strategy. It's not your average league."