Originally posted by Rob K:
Greg and Tom,
Isn't one of the ways to attract more people to make them feel comfortable and add enjoyment? Absolutely and that is why Greg and I do read what you guys have to say and why we do take into consideration all of your ideas. We want your input and I know I speak for Greg in saying we think it's great that you guys have such strong and passionate ideas for helping us make this event better in the years to come.
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Tom Kessenich
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Tom Kessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Manager of High Stakes Fantasy Games, SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @TomKessenich
Week 6 Top 30
Originally posted by TamuScarecrow:
I think it's been stated enough times that the "PERCEPTION" of collusion is enough to think twice about this idea. I doubt anyone in the NFFC is in a local league where you can buy or bid for your draft spot so to do it in the NFFC doesn't make sense. To me, make it a side league option but keep it out of the NFFC. How is collusion a factor when: a) different players want different draft positions, b) everyone has an equal shot at each position because it is a silent bid, and c) the winning bidders are at a disadvantge when it comes to remaining FAAB dollars?
Theoretically, pulling from a hat is more susceptible to impropriety.
I think it's been stated enough times that the "PERCEPTION" of collusion is enough to think twice about this idea. I doubt anyone in the NFFC is in a local league where you can buy or bid for your draft spot so to do it in the NFFC doesn't make sense. To me, make it a side league option but keep it out of the NFFC. How is collusion a factor when: a) different players want different draft positions, b) everyone has an equal shot at each position because it is a silent bid, and c) the winning bidders are at a disadvantge when it comes to remaining FAAB dollars?
Theoretically, pulling from a hat is more susceptible to impropriety.
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Originally posted by David Wooderson:
The other thing is let's say you could bid on your draft spot. Well how many people would have bid on the 4th and 6th spots to get Portis and McCallister? Im sure alot would have, including myself, and look how that has turned out.
I guarantee you that if we did bid on draft slots, this thread would be replaced with "Why Bidding on Free Agents Sucks". Everyone would be talking about how it serves no purpose because the guy they paid to draft, is underperforming and that if this was a normal draft, they wouldnt have been forced to spend money and make that decision. Bad strategy = bad results. Good strategy = good results. Isn't that how it should be?
No one is forced to spend money. If you believe bidding is bad, don't bid and you'll have the edge because you'll have more FAAB.
You can complain about a system that screws you, but can you complain about a system that only allows you to screw yourself?
The other thing is let's say you could bid on your draft spot. Well how many people would have bid on the 4th and 6th spots to get Portis and McCallister? Im sure alot would have, including myself, and look how that has turned out.
I guarantee you that if we did bid on draft slots, this thread would be replaced with "Why Bidding on Free Agents Sucks". Everyone would be talking about how it serves no purpose because the guy they paid to draft, is underperforming and that if this was a normal draft, they wouldnt have been forced to spend money and make that decision. Bad strategy = bad results. Good strategy = good results. Isn't that how it should be?
No one is forced to spend money. If you believe bidding is bad, don't bid and you'll have the edge because you'll have more FAAB.
You can complain about a system that screws you, but can you complain about a system that only allows you to screw yourself?
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ultimatefs
- Posts: 2393
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Originally posted by KJ Duke:
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
What it boils down to as far as I'm concerned is if you believe that you can win a championship from any draft position (which is what I believe), why create a new process to determine draft order in the first place? Just curious. Tom,
It's a little frustrating that my point keeps sliding right past most people that disagree with slot bidding ...
I don't dispute (never did) that someone can win from any draft slot.
As such, I completely agree with you if the questions are:
(1) is the game fair? (yes it is), and
(2) does any particular slot preclude you from winning? (no).
What John is posting is strong evidence of this. Which again, I don't dispute.
My point is this ...
If I develop a draft strategy to target certain players (which I do) I would like the opportunity to try to obtain a slot that fits my strategy.
If I am randomly assigned a slot which does not fit my strategy, that reduces my ability to go after the players that I want to draft.
example 1.
In the NFFC I wanted to draft either S Alexander or R Moss in rd 1 because I felt they were underrated relative to their expected draft position with Shaun expected to go 4-5, and Moss 7-8. So I wanted an early-to-mid pick. I also wanted a mid-to-late second rd because I believed Duce was underrated and I though I could get him there, or even early 3rd.
What happened? I get the 12 slot which left me the option of a group of guys I didn't care for, or I take Duce in rd 1 rather than late 2 or early 3. Well, I take Duce and I get berated for taking him #1. I can live with that, but it clearly put me at a disadvantage when I could have had him late 2 or early 3.
example 2.
Mid-season draft. I pay up to get the #4 slot to draft Culpepper. I get him, he's kickin @#$, I am happy. If he goes down I lose. That is the risk I wanted to take. If I lose it's because my strategy did'nt pay off. That is what it SHOULD be about.
If the guy that drafted Culpepper in rd 3 wins it all was he good, or was he lucky that the right player(s) just happened to fall him? Now I understand that from a business standpoint, you don't really care whether the guy was good or lucky so far as the contest is perceived as fair.
But as a player that wants to compete on skill not luck, I do care, and I'm not alone.
example 3.
Over to the NFBC. I was assigned the #1 slot. Didn't want it, didn't fit my strategy. Probably 10 other guys did. I wasn't happy, neither were they. Would've been a better experience with bidding.
Rounding back to the original question ... does the NFFC afford the opportunity to win from any draft position. Absolutely.
Is a high stakes game whose implied goal is to crown the best FF player the winner better off using rules that allow for more strategy and less luck. Absolutely!
The auction leagues really are the better format for determining skill. I understand they aren't mainstream enough yet to pull the numbers you need. But this slight variation moves one small step in that direction.
In my opinion, its not significant enough to scare anyone way, while substantially improving one of the most unfair elements of the game (denying someone the right to execute a particular strategy).
Go ahead and disagree with me if you like, but please let me know that you actually get my point! [/QUOTE]Question for today is....
If everyone wants this to be the best test of skill, then is it better test to be able to choose where you pick or to be randomly assigned a pick?
The TRUER test of the OVERALL skill, which is what I think Greg wants, and he'll correct me if I'm wrong, is to be randomly assigned so that the OVERALL skill of the owner is tested, and not just their own personal draft preferences, which we all have.
quote:Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
What it boils down to as far as I'm concerned is if you believe that you can win a championship from any draft position (which is what I believe), why create a new process to determine draft order in the first place? Just curious. Tom,
It's a little frustrating that my point keeps sliding right past most people that disagree with slot bidding ...
I don't dispute (never did) that someone can win from any draft slot.
As such, I completely agree with you if the questions are:
(1) is the game fair? (yes it is), and
(2) does any particular slot preclude you from winning? (no).
What John is posting is strong evidence of this. Which again, I don't dispute.
My point is this ...
If I develop a draft strategy to target certain players (which I do) I would like the opportunity to try to obtain a slot that fits my strategy.
If I am randomly assigned a slot which does not fit my strategy, that reduces my ability to go after the players that I want to draft.
example 1.
In the NFFC I wanted to draft either S Alexander or R Moss in rd 1 because I felt they were underrated relative to their expected draft position with Shaun expected to go 4-5, and Moss 7-8. So I wanted an early-to-mid pick. I also wanted a mid-to-late second rd because I believed Duce was underrated and I though I could get him there, or even early 3rd.
What happened? I get the 12 slot which left me the option of a group of guys I didn't care for, or I take Duce in rd 1 rather than late 2 or early 3. Well, I take Duce and I get berated for taking him #1. I can live with that, but it clearly put me at a disadvantage when I could have had him late 2 or early 3.
example 2.
Mid-season draft. I pay up to get the #4 slot to draft Culpepper. I get him, he's kickin @#$, I am happy. If he goes down I lose. That is the risk I wanted to take. If I lose it's because my strategy did'nt pay off. That is what it SHOULD be about.
If the guy that drafted Culpepper in rd 3 wins it all was he good, or was he lucky that the right player(s) just happened to fall him? Now I understand that from a business standpoint, you don't really care whether the guy was good or lucky so far as the contest is perceived as fair.
But as a player that wants to compete on skill not luck, I do care, and I'm not alone.
example 3.
Over to the NFBC. I was assigned the #1 slot. Didn't want it, didn't fit my strategy. Probably 10 other guys did. I wasn't happy, neither were they. Would've been a better experience with bidding.
Rounding back to the original question ... does the NFFC afford the opportunity to win from any draft position. Absolutely.
Is a high stakes game whose implied goal is to crown the best FF player the winner better off using rules that allow for more strategy and less luck. Absolutely!
The auction leagues really are the better format for determining skill. I understand they aren't mainstream enough yet to pull the numbers you need. But this slight variation moves one small step in that direction.
In my opinion, its not significant enough to scare anyone way, while substantially improving one of the most unfair elements of the game (denying someone the right to execute a particular strategy).
Go ahead and disagree with me if you like, but please let me know that you actually get my point! [/QUOTE]Question for today is....
If everyone wants this to be the best test of skill, then is it better test to be able to choose where you pick or to be randomly assigned a pick?
The TRUER test of the OVERALL skill, which is what I think Greg wants, and he'll correct me if I'm wrong, is to be randomly assigned so that the OVERALL skill of the owner is tested, and not just their own personal draft preferences, which we all have.
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.
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Gordon Gekko
- Posts: 7222
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Originally posted by David Wooderson:
I don't agree with bidding on draft slots at all. most of your argument has nothing to do with blind bidding on draft slots. it's more like fluff that is obvious to any system, like "the draft is the most important thing" or "you can win from any draft slot". golly gee, i didn't know that stuff.
i could spend 10 minutes and shoot holes in everything you just said. i really didn't want to address this issue until after the season, as this is time consuming. KJ Duke and others, let's wait until the end of the season to start this up again. thanks.
I don't agree with bidding on draft slots at all. most of your argument has nothing to do with blind bidding on draft slots. it's more like fluff that is obvious to any system, like "the draft is the most important thing" or "you can win from any draft slot". golly gee, i didn't know that stuff.
i could spend 10 minutes and shoot holes in everything you just said. i really didn't want to address this issue until after the season, as this is time consuming. KJ Duke and others, let's wait until the end of the season to start this up again. thanks.
Is my "weekend warrior" prep better than your prep?
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David Wooderson
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:00 pm
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Originally posted by KJ Duke:
No one is forced to spend money. If you believe bidding is bad, don't bid and you'll have the edge because you'll have more FAAB. [/QB]Then how does this system become fair? Let the 6 guys who are in favor taint the draft by bidding and the other 8 of us can just sit back and accept 7-14 because we dont want to bid?
KJ,
You talk alot about strategy and I agree with you to an extent, its definately important, but if you think that a strategy that you make up pre-draft is going to hold, then that is flat out wrong.
The most fun part of the draft is adjusting your strategy on the fly because of the unexpected, and thats the difference between the good players and the not so good in my opinion. If someone was bidding on the 14 spot to take 2 certain players, those players could very well be gone, or if they bid on the 5 spot because it would allow them for example to get their 3rd Rb in Round 3. Well what if things dont go as planned and those 5 guys you are targeting in the 3rd round that you were sure that were going to be there are all gone? Doesnt that debunk the strategy of bidding on a certain draft spot for a certain reason?
I mean basically Im hearing that the #1 reason for this, is for guys who are strategists to be able to have a plan pre-draft and implement it. The only person who is guaranteed to get who they want anyways under a bidding system is the #1 pick. With 14 picks between yours, there is no way you can even have a solid plan. You can have several plans but there is no way you can lock down a strategy that you know is going to work for sure. Even if your plan is to grab a QB to start a QB run, insuring that the RB you want is going to be there in Rounds 2-3, you cant be certain that will happen.
And to me, thats why the random draft works. EVERY TEAM is told that they are picking from Spot X. You then go and try and develop a gameplan before the draft on the best way to win from that spot. During the draft, you have to adjust and go through several contingency plans based on what happens, but every single team has to deal with that.
By picking your own draft spot through a bid, it's no longer random for all 14 players and the draft is tainted.
No one is forced to spend money. If you believe bidding is bad, don't bid and you'll have the edge because you'll have more FAAB. [/QB]Then how does this system become fair? Let the 6 guys who are in favor taint the draft by bidding and the other 8 of us can just sit back and accept 7-14 because we dont want to bid?
KJ,
You talk alot about strategy and I agree with you to an extent, its definately important, but if you think that a strategy that you make up pre-draft is going to hold, then that is flat out wrong.
The most fun part of the draft is adjusting your strategy on the fly because of the unexpected, and thats the difference between the good players and the not so good in my opinion. If someone was bidding on the 14 spot to take 2 certain players, those players could very well be gone, or if they bid on the 5 spot because it would allow them for example to get their 3rd Rb in Round 3. Well what if things dont go as planned and those 5 guys you are targeting in the 3rd round that you were sure that were going to be there are all gone? Doesnt that debunk the strategy of bidding on a certain draft spot for a certain reason?
I mean basically Im hearing that the #1 reason for this, is for guys who are strategists to be able to have a plan pre-draft and implement it. The only person who is guaranteed to get who they want anyways under a bidding system is the #1 pick. With 14 picks between yours, there is no way you can even have a solid plan. You can have several plans but there is no way you can lock down a strategy that you know is going to work for sure. Even if your plan is to grab a QB to start a QB run, insuring that the RB you want is going to be there in Rounds 2-3, you cant be certain that will happen.
And to me, thats why the random draft works. EVERY TEAM is told that they are picking from Spot X. You then go and try and develop a gameplan before the draft on the best way to win from that spot. During the draft, you have to adjust and go through several contingency plans based on what happens, but every single team has to deal with that.
By picking your own draft spot through a bid, it's no longer random for all 14 players and the draft is tainted.
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David Wooderson
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Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:
i could spend 10 minutes and shoot holes in everything you just said. i really didn't want to address this issue until after the season, as this is time consuming. KJ Duke and others, let's wait until the end of the season to start this up again. thanks. Yeah you probably could just as I could spend 10 minutes shooting holes in yours, because this isnt a clear cut arguemnt with a clear cut answer. Its one that is based on opinion, and with that everyone is going to believe what they want.
You seem to think that if someone has a different opinion than yours, than it is wrong, but what you need to keep in mind is that 224 people are playing in this contest and the large majority of them dont post their views on the message board. You've complained and questioned virtually every single rule all season long. You knew the rules coming in, so they shouldnt come as a shock to you nor do they always need questioned and changed because you dont like them. If you stopped and thought for a second, the rules might have been designed and implemented for a certain reason, because they are proven to work.
You cant please everyone, but you are grossly underestimating what Greg says when he says it would be a complete clusterf$%k if he tried to get everyone to bid on their draft spots.
i could spend 10 minutes and shoot holes in everything you just said. i really didn't want to address this issue until after the season, as this is time consuming. KJ Duke and others, let's wait until the end of the season to start this up again. thanks. Yeah you probably could just as I could spend 10 minutes shooting holes in yours, because this isnt a clear cut arguemnt with a clear cut answer. Its one that is based on opinion, and with that everyone is going to believe what they want.
You seem to think that if someone has a different opinion than yours, than it is wrong, but what you need to keep in mind is that 224 people are playing in this contest and the large majority of them dont post their views on the message board. You've complained and questioned virtually every single rule all season long. You knew the rules coming in, so they shouldnt come as a shock to you nor do they always need questioned and changed because you dont like them. If you stopped and thought for a second, the rules might have been designed and implemented for a certain reason, because they are proven to work.
You cant please everyone, but you are grossly underestimating what Greg says when he says it would be a complete clusterf$%k if he tried to get everyone to bid on their draft spots.
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TamuScarecrow
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How is collusion a factor when: a) different players want different draft positions, b) everyone has an equal shot at each position because it is a silent bid, and c) the winning bidders are at a disadvantge when it comes to remaining FAAB dollars?KJ, let me give you an example. You, Dyv, and Gordon are in the same league and get the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks after bidding $700 each. I'm also in this league and know that you three know each other and in the 2nd round, Gordon, with the 3rd pick takes Minor, Dyv with the 2nd pick takes Shockey, and you with the 1st pick take Holt and Ward. "PERCEPTION". I'm not saying this would happen or even work, but for $$$$$$, a lot of bad thoughts can happen. Yes, leagues are drawn at random and anyone can outbid anyone for the spots and there are probably 50 other variables you can throw in there, but you only need the perception of inpropriety to ruin the game and the reputation. That's why some people fail in this business and some people don't.
2005 NY/CHI League Champ
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2006 CHI#2 3rd Place
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Originally posted by TamuScarecrow:
quote:How is collusion a factor when: a) different players want different draft positions, b) everyone has an equal shot at each position because it is a silent bid, and c) the winning bidders are at a disadvantge when it comes to remaining FAAB dollars?KJ, let me give you an example. You, Dyv, and Gordon are in the same league and get the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks after bidding $700 each. I'm also in this league and know that you three know each other and in the 2nd round, Gordon, with the 3rd pick takes Minor, Dyv with the 2nd pick takes Shockey, and you with the 1st pick take Holt and Ward. "PERCEPTION". I'm not saying this would happen or even work, but for $$$$$$, a lot of bad thoughts can happen. Yes, leagues are drawn at random and anyone can outbid anyone for the spots and there are probably 50 other variables you can throw in there, but you only need the perception of inpropriety to ruin the game and the reputation. That's why some people fail in this business and some people don't. [/QUOTE]Tamu, I'm confused by your argument.
Collusion would be possible if certain guys know each other? OK, I agree with that.
If we could pick which league we play in, yes, collusion would be more likely.
But I don't see how bidding draft slot (or not) changes this. Don't even understand how someone could "perceive" this as possible collusion. League assignment would still be random.
quote:How is collusion a factor when: a) different players want different draft positions, b) everyone has an equal shot at each position because it is a silent bid, and c) the winning bidders are at a disadvantge when it comes to remaining FAAB dollars?KJ, let me give you an example. You, Dyv, and Gordon are in the same league and get the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks after bidding $700 each. I'm also in this league and know that you three know each other and in the 2nd round, Gordon, with the 3rd pick takes Minor, Dyv with the 2nd pick takes Shockey, and you with the 1st pick take Holt and Ward. "PERCEPTION". I'm not saying this would happen or even work, but for $$$$$$, a lot of bad thoughts can happen. Yes, leagues are drawn at random and anyone can outbid anyone for the spots and there are probably 50 other variables you can throw in there, but you only need the perception of inpropriety to ruin the game and the reputation. That's why some people fail in this business and some people don't. [/QUOTE]Tamu, I'm confused by your argument.
Collusion would be possible if certain guys know each other? OK, I agree with that.
If we could pick which league we play in, yes, collusion would be more likely.
But I don't see how bidding draft slot (or not) changes this. Don't even understand how someone could "perceive" this as possible collusion. League assignment would still be random.
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Originally posted by David Wooderson:
quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:
No one is forced to spend money. If you believe bidding is bad, don't bid and you'll have the edge because you'll have more FAAB. Then how does this system become fair? Let the 6 guys who are in favor taint the draft by bidding and the other 8 of us can just sit back and accept 7-14 because we dont want to bid?
[/QB][/QUOTE]You've spent paragraphs arguing that you can win from any draft position, but now you're arguing that you don't want to just accept any slot? I would think you would be thrilled to see others waste their free agent money while you sit back and improvise your way into a great draft.
Here's the simplest arguement for slot bidding - we're trying to make a contest that crowns the best fantasy football player, right? So why not take this small element of luck out of the equation and let people make up their own minds what the best strategy is?!?
- Collusion was a real arguement against that but by not announcing who's in what league before the bids this can be avoided.
- Being complicated isn't any issue since this is the same system we use for picking up free agents every week.
Are there any other reasons this WOULDN'T be implimented?
quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:
No one is forced to spend money. If you believe bidding is bad, don't bid and you'll have the edge because you'll have more FAAB. Then how does this system become fair? Let the 6 guys who are in favor taint the draft by bidding and the other 8 of us can just sit back and accept 7-14 because we dont want to bid?
[/QB][/QUOTE]You've spent paragraphs arguing that you can win from any draft position, but now you're arguing that you don't want to just accept any slot? I would think you would be thrilled to see others waste their free agent money while you sit back and improvise your way into a great draft.
Here's the simplest arguement for slot bidding - we're trying to make a contest that crowns the best fantasy football player, right? So why not take this small element of luck out of the equation and let people make up their own minds what the best strategy is?!?
- Collusion was a real arguement against that but by not announcing who's in what league before the bids this can be avoided.
- Being complicated isn't any issue since this is the same system we use for picking up free agents every week.
Are there any other reasons this WOULDN'T be implimented?