Special Teams Discussion

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Mon May 17, 2010 4:41 am

Let's bring the discussion to this thread. Here is the current rule:

DEFENSE/SPECIAL TEAMS:
• 1 point for every sack
• 2 points for every interception or opponents' fumble recovery
• 6 points for every touchdown (interception return, defensive fumble return, punt or kickoff return, blocked field goal return, blocked punt return). All special teams and defensive points are awarded to the team responsible, not the individual player. Should a kicker, punter or field goal holder throw a pass off a fake attempt, however, the offensive output for that offensive play would go towards the individual player, not the specials team. Also, any lost fumble or “muff” on a specials team play does not result in negative points for that individual player.

The NFL considers a fake FG or fake punt score to be an offensive play and so do we. I'll let Greg chime in but at this time I do not see us changing how we score the play given how it directly follows the NFL rule. However, if we need to clarify the language let us know. For those who believe we do, how should the rule be written? We can talk about that here and discuss it further.

BillyWaz · Post by **BillyWaz** » Mon May 17, 2010 5:07 am

Honestly, these plays don't happen enough to worry about how this is set up in the rules.

I mean is anyone REALLY going to boost up a specific player or defense because they think a trick play MIGHT occur......I doubt it.

The point is the rule has to have ZERO "gray" area. I personally would use real life examples...

"If Tony Romo throws a pass for a TD on a fake field goal, then he..........."

Do this for EVERY scenario (of course the Meachem scenario) and it shouldn't be a problem.

The biggest challenge for this IMO is getting it done in a timely manner so the IT dept. can program it correctly before the season. Nothing worse that having points taken away (or added to an opposing team) due to a "programming issue".

mikeybok · Post by **mikeybok** » Mon May 17, 2010 5:50 am

Originally posted by BillyWaz:
Honestly, these plays don't happen enough to worry about how this is set up in the rules.

I mean is anyone REALLY going to boost up a specific player or defense because they think a trick play MIGHT occur......I doubt it.

The point is the rule has to have ZERO "gray" area. I personally would use real life examples...

"If Tony Romo throws a pass for a TD on a fake field goal, then he..........."

Do this for EVERY scenario (of course the Meachem scenario) and it shouldn't be a problem.

The biggest challenge for this IMO is getting it done in a timely manner so the IT dept. can program it correctly before the season. Nothing worse that having points taken away (or added to an opposing team) due to a "programming issue".

I thought last years rues had ZERO gray. It listed a number of ways points would be awarded ... then said these are the ONLY cases points would be awarded. Sadly .... people wanted points awarded for other stuff like return TD's and the Meachem play. When they found they were not included in the rules ... they bitched because the were not specifically omitted from the scoring. I don't understand why that makes it unclear. If they want to add the scoring this year for those things ... that's fine.

If the rules state that RB,WR,QB and TE's get 6 points for a rushing TD. AND Those are the only points awarded for rushing TD's.

If a Kicker runs in a TD ... there are NO points awarded and it is NOT gray. NO need for a rule to state that a Kicker get zero points for a rushing TD. It's fine if it's spelled out, but it doesn't need to be because it's covered by "no other points will be awarded for rushing TD's. Clear as a sunny day.

Going forward ... rules can change ... it burns me that everyone acts like we didn't have a rule to cover this ... we did ... it said NO other points would be awarded except for the situations listed above. And the Meachem case was not listed as a way to score NFFC points as it was considered a return TD (because no rushing yards were awarded ... ie ... not a rushing TD).

How could that be any clearer?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon May 17, 2010 1:08 pm

I'm cool with adding more language in the rules to cover all scenarios, but honestly this is a copy and paste from last year's rules. We didn't add or delete anything that wasn't there last year. All we added was language to the last line of the Defensive scoring rules to cover the "Meacham Play."

But yeah, we can add more language to cover every situation so that there is no gray area. Nobody would be happier with that than me. Let's do it. Thanks for helping us in this area.

RedRyder · Post by **RedRyder** » Tue May 18, 2010 3:20 am

Originally posted by RedRyder:
quote:Originally posted by Shrink Attack:
My confusion centers around the following:

1) I can understand a scoring system where all Special Team scores are awarded to the DST unit.

2) I can understand a scoring system where all Special Team scores are awarded to the individual(s) producing the score.

3) I CAN'T understand a scoring system where some Special Team scores are awarded to the DST unit (i.e., punt return TD's) while other Special Team Scores (i.e., passing TD's) are awarded to the individual producing the score.

As it stands now, if Tony Romo is the holder for a FG attempt, and it's a bad snap and he throws for a TD, he gets 6 points and DST gets zero. If Devin Hester returns a punt for a TD, Hester gets zero and the DST gets 6 points.

Where's the logic in that?

Also...what if Romo scrambles for a TD in that same situation? Does he only get 6 points for a passing TD but not a running TD? And if Romo gets 6 points for throwing the TD, shouldn't the player catching the TD pass get 6 points too?

There are tons of examples of how gray areas can emerge with the rule as it's currently written. Well stated. [/QUOTE]Above is a cut and paste from another thread.

While I agree that what we are talking about is VERY rare in occurrence, it does happen. It being a planned fake punt or FG or a botched FG or punt.

We draft a DST (Defense/Special Teams) unit. If that unit is on the field, why shouldn't we get points if they score?

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Tue May 18, 2010 3:25 am

The thing is, though, Jules the play is not recognized as a special teams score. It is recognized by the NFL as an offensive play. So Paul's post above is not correct. We are not awarding "some" special teams scores but not others. We are recognizing offensive points in this instance just as the NFL does. I can appreciate people believing that it should be a special teams play but that is not how the league recognizes it so it's not like we're arbitrarily assigning points without meaning.

And like Greg said, this isn't a rule change. This is how we've handled it in the past.

RedRyder · Post by **RedRyder** » Tue May 18, 2010 3:51 am

Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
The thing is, though, Jules the play is not recognized as a special teams score. It is recognized by the NFL as an offensive play. So Paul's post above is not correct. We are not awarding "some" special teams scores but not others. We are recognizing offensive points in this instance just as the NFL does. I can appreciate people believing that it should be a special teams play but that is not how the league recognizes it so it's not like we're arbitrarily assigning points without meaning.

And like Greg said, this isn't a rule change. This is how we've handled it in the past. -First, I have seen nowhere that anyone is complaining about this being a rule change. Folks, including me, are concerned about potential gray areas and/or the if the rule needs to be changed (ie. allowing fake FGs or punts resulting in a TD to be scored to DST).

------------------------------------------------
In another thread you wrote:

-Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
I'll jump into a new thread about this when it's created but I did answer the question Jules. The NFL considers that an offensive score and so do we. It's simple as that - even if the player who scored isn't rostered. That happens all the time in fantasy football. How many fullbacks are rostered in fantasy leagues? What about an offensive lineman who catches a touchdown on a tackle eligible play? You could make the same argument there and it goes on and on.

Again, I think we have the rule correct in terms of it being an offensive score. Now if we need to clarify the language we can do that. Let's discuss this more in a separate thread. Sound good?

I responded:

We are talking about SPECIAL TEAMS, a UNIT in football and a SCORING UNIT in the this contest. In the NFFC we don't have scoring for the OFFENSIVE UNIT only, we have it for the skill players. Hence if a a tackle reports as eligible, great. I have no problem that he catches a TD, he is part of the offensive unit that is on the field and we don't have scoring for that. And plenty of folks rostered Leonard Weaver last year (I know I did) and reaped the reward when he found the end zone.

----------------------------------------------

-I can't find it now, but Rob Benetti wrote something to the effect that THIS IS OUR GAME, NOT THE NFL's. I agree completely. We don't follow NFL scoring to a tee. We tweak it so we have a more dynamic experience in our leagues.

It gets a little tiresome to see the old fallback you keep stating of (to paraphrase) the NFL recognizes it this way, so we will too. They don't recognize an INT, SACK or FUMBLE recovery as 2 points on the scoreboard. If a NFFC team rosters Tony Romo & Miles Austin and Romo throws Austin a pass for a TD, the NFFC awards 12 points to that team (6 for the QB and 6 to the WR), but the NFL only awards 6 points on the scoreboard for the Cowboys. Clearly, OUR GAME is different from the NFL.

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Tue May 18, 2010 3:55 am

Jules, I agree we don't follow the NFL rules in every instance and our game is different. But you're asking why we score this particular play the way we do and I've replied with the reason why. I can appreciate if you and others believe this is a special teams play. Honest I do. But in our event at the present time we view it the same way the NFL does - as an offensive play.

And if you or others contend that we shouldn't because no one rosters a punter I would counter by saying few people roster a fullback and yet they score even more frequently. And no one rosters an offensive lineman who may score on a tackle eligible play. The fact of the matter is there will be instances of non-rostered players scoring points that are not assigned in the NFFC (or any fantasy league) far more frequently than the type of play we're talking about here.

RedRyder · Post by **RedRyder** » Tue May 18, 2010 4:04 am

Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Jules, I agree we don't follow the NFL rules in every instance and our game is different. But you're asking why we score this particular play the way we do and I've replied with the reason why. I can appreciate if you and others believe this is a special teams play. Honest I do. But in our event at the present time we view it the same way the NFL does - as an offensive play.

And if you or others contend that we shouldn't because no one rosters a punter I would counter by saying few people roster a fullback and yet they score even more frequently. And no one rosters an offensive lineman who may score on a tackle eligible play. The fact of the matter is there will be instances of non-rostered players scoring points that are not assigned in the NFFC (or any fantasy league) far more frequently than the type of play we're talking about here. We are talking about SPECIAL TEAMS, a UNIT in football and a SCORING UNIT in the this contest. In the NFFC we don't have scoring for the OFFENSIVE UNIT only, we have it for the skill players. Hence if a a tackle reports as eligible, great. I have no problem that he catches a TD, he is part of the offensive unit that is on the field and we don't have scoring for that. And plenty of folks rostered Leonard Weaver last year (I know I did) and reaped the reward when he found the end zone.

If Special Teams is on the field and they score I think NFFC teams rostering that DST should be rewarded.

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Tue May 18, 2010 4:06 am

I understand that. But in this instance at the present time we're viewing it the same way the NFL does - as an offensive play. Like the NFL, we do not consider that to be a special teams score. Again, if we need to clarify the wording let us know how we can do that and we'll make any revision that is necessary.