NFFC League Playoffs 2012

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:55 am

Originally posted by Coltsfan:
quote:Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
Hate adding more negative points even more than keeping 6 which is already bad enough. Would make the separation even larger. Bad idea. Agreed! That's what I attempted to say earlier but probably didn't do it very well.

It's funny but the NFFC is the WR/QB format while the FFPC is the RB/TE format I do think PPR across the board will balance it out a bit.

Wayne [/QUOTE]We can create a new rules discussion somewhere else, but at this point we haven't even proposed a change. I'm not sure it's needed even with 6 points per passing TD, which is staying in the NFFC. The different scoring formats make for unique games.

Let's stay focused on the possible league playoff format on this thread and I'll gladly put a Rules Discussion thread together when we have some ideas on possible changes. I think one of them is making our consistent scoring in our games, which involves our current 1/2 point per reception for RBs in the Classic and 1 ppr for RBs in the Primetime. I do see a reason why we should make it one way for both. But we can discuss that later.

Here, I'd love to stay focused on the possible playoff format and if it's needed for the Classic and the Primetime or just the Primetime. Like scoring for RBs, should this idea of league playoffs be used in the Classic as well?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:01 am

Originally posted by BONGIZMO:
If we have to have playoffs and you decide not to do it with points, what about four teams where the first round lasts two weeks?

The winner of 1 v s4 ,2 vs 3 go against each other in week 16 for the title. I have issues with the luck factor blowing a strong team out from cashing with one bad game. This way you reward the stronger teams potentially by getting them into the title game for the cash. Scott, I don't believe it's best to do the league playoffs in a h2h matchup for Weeks 14-16 because Week 16 could have a lot of teams on byes. One idea we had was to maybe have h2h in Week 14 -- 3 vs. 6 and 4 vs. 5 with the winner of those two h2h matchups then emerging with seeds 1 and 2 (who had byes) for total points for the remaining prize money. Total points would include scores in Weeks 14, 15 and 16, which means even though Seeds 1 and 2 had byes their Week 14 scores would still count towards this league playoff. It's a way to keep every team involved every week within the Championship Round and league playoffs, while mixing in a h2h format and total points format. How we'd pay off the remaining league playoff money is something I haven't figured out yet, but this is an interesting idea for the league playoff.

Thoughts?

Sandman62 · Post by **Sandman62** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:32 am

Though it's quite a challenge to make the playoffs in 12-team leagues due to only two teams getting in, IMO letting SIX teams in is a bit extreme. I always disliked local leagues that let half the teams into playoffs because too often some 6-7 team gets hot for two weeks and makes it to the Super Bowl!

Why not split the difference and bump the number of playoff teams from 2 to 4 in 12-team leagues? In 14-team, probably 4 or 5 (5 only if h2h not occurring in playoffs).

[ December 01, 2011, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:32 am

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
Hate adding more negative points even more than keeping 6 which is already bad enough. Would make the separation even larger. Bad idea. It's easy enough to do the math and see whether this changes the landscape as you say. Here's the NFFC scoring for the Top 20 QBs:

1. Aaron Rodgers: 397.2 points, 36.1 average, 4 INTs
2. Drew Brees: 351.6 points, 31.9 average, 11 INTs
3. Tom Brady: 344.8 points, 31.3, 10 INTs
4. Cam Newton: 321.0 points, 29.1 average, 14 INTs
5. Matthew Stafford: 307.3 points, 27.9 average, 13 INTs
6. Eli Manning: 281.3 points, 25.5 average, 10 INTs
7. Tony Romo: 271.6 points, 24.6 average, 9 INTs
8. Matt Ryan: 259.0 points, 23.5 average, 10 INTs
9. Ben Roethlisberger: 248.5 points, 22.5 average, 10 INTs
10. Philip Rivers: 247.4 points, 22.4 average, 17 INTs
11. Mark Sanchez: 243.6 points, 22.1 average, 11 INTs
12. Ryan Fitzpatrick: 240.7 points, 21.8 average, 14 INTs
13. Andy Dalton: 222.5 points, 20.2 average, 12 INTs
14. Matt Schaub: 219.8 points, 21.9 average, 6 INTs
15. Josh Freeman: 218.0 points, 19.8 average, 16 INTs
16. Michael Vick: 215.1 points, 23.9 average, 11 INTs
17. Joe Flacco: 212.6 points, 19.3 average, 8 INTs
18. Matt Hasselbeck: 210.1 points, 19.1 average, 10 INTs
19. Colt McCoy: 203.8 points, 18.5 average, 8 INTs
20. Alex Smith: 198.2 points, 18.0 average, 5 INTs

Now with -2 points for every interception:

1. Aaron Rodgers: 393.2 points
2. Drew Brees: 340.6 points
3. Tom Brady: 334.8 points
4. Cam Newton: 307.0 points
5. Matthew Stafford: 294.3 points
6. Eli Manning: 271.3 points
7. Tony Romo: 262.6 points
8. Matt Ryan: 249.0 points
9. Ben Roethlisberger: 238.5 points
10. Philip Rivers: 230.4 points
11. Mark Sanchez: 232.6 points
12. Ryan Fitzpatrick: 226.7 points
13. Andy Dalton: 210.5 points
14. Matt Schaub: 213.8 points
15. Josh Freeman: 202.0 points
16. Michael Vick: 204.1 points
17. Joe Flacco: 204.6 points
18. Matt Hasselbeck: 200.1 points
19. Colt McCoy: 195.8 points
20. Alex Smith: 193.2 points

Did this really change the QB landscape? No, the top QBs are still the top QBs. Rodgers has 4 INTs and the 20th QB has 5 INTs. Most have between 10 and 12. All it really did was lower the point production of the QBs by less than a point per game. So for those who dislike 6 points per passing TD, why would another point for interceptions make things worse?

I hate to even ask the question because this isn't the thread for the debate, but the analysis doesn't show a big discrepency among QBs, other than Rodgers' miniscule total of INTs.

[ December 01, 2011, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

Sandman62 · Post by **Sandman62** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:39 am

Greg, I think the issue isn't about changing how QBs rank. Rather, by reducing passing TDs to 4 points and/or increasing Ints to -2, it would change the proportion of our team total points scored by this single position. Right now, QBs account for probably 15-20% of our 10-player lineups. That could be reduced, making it a bit harder to "live off" our QB.

And I'm not so sure that reducing passing TDs to 4 would cause everyone to load up on RBs early in drafts. However, coupled with full PPR for RBs, it might. I know in ESPN leagues, they default to 4-PT passing TDs but with NO PPR for anyone. So yes, in those, QBs get pushed to rounds 4-5+ and RBs rule the first couple rounds. But as long as WRs and TEs have a slight PPR advantage, I think they'd still be drafted early.

[ December 01, 2011, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]

BONGIZMO · Post by **BONGIZMO** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:09 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by BONGIZMO:
If we have to have playoffs and you decide not to do it with points, what about four teams where the first round lasts two weeks?

The winner of 1 v s4 ,2 vs 3 go against each other in week 16 for the title. I have issues with the luck factor blowing a strong team out from cashing with one bad game. This way you reward the stronger teams potentially by getting them into the title game for the cash. Scott, I don't believe it's best to do the league playoffs in a h2h matchup for Weeks 14-16 because Week 16 could have a lot of teams on byes. One idea we had was to maybe have h2h in Week 14 -- 3 vs. 6 and 4 vs. 5 with the winner of those two h2h matchups then emerging with seeds 1 and 2 (who had byes) for total points for the remaining prize money. Total points would include scores in Weeks 14, 15 and 16, which means even though Seeds 1 and 2 had byes their Week 14 scores would still count towards this league playoff. It's a way to keep every team involved every week within the Championship Round and league playoffs, while mixing in a h2h format and total points format. How we'd pay off the remaining league playoff money is something I haven't figured out yet, but this is an interesting idea for the league playoff.

Thoughts? [/QUOTE]Greg,

I am with you on points being the deciding factor in the playoffs. I was concerned you might be moving to a pure playoff system and that worried me as the NFFC has always been the contest that rewarded points teams more than H2H. The idea of making sure the top seeds don't get bounced by an off week is important, like your idea of letting the lower seeds duke it out before a point sprint.

particra · Post by **particra** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:31 am

The -1/-2 points for interceptions will have virtually no impact. Most QBs will fall in the same range in interceptions (between 8-18). There's a selection bias involved as well: teams generally won't let QBs continue to play if they are going to throw 25+ INTs.

It's really a minor point. The 6/4 pt TD issue is far more meaningful. I do not like the 6 pts, but I'm not going to stop playing if it stays.

Coltsfan · Post by **Coltsfan** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:56 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
Hate adding more negative points even more than keeping 6 which is already bad enough. Would make the separation even larger. Bad idea. It's easy enough to do the math and see whether this changes the landscape as you say. Here's the NFFC scoring for the Top 20 QBs:

1. Aaron Rodgers: 397.2 points, 36.1 average, 4 INTs
2. Drew Brees: 351.6 points, 31.9 average, 11 INTs
3. Tom Brady: 344.8 points, 31.3, 10 INTs
4. Cam Newton: 321.0 points, 29.1 average, 14 INTs
5. Matthew Stafford: 307.3 points, 27.9 average, 13 INTs
6. Eli Manning: 281.3 points, 25.5 average, 10 INTs
7. Tony Romo: 271.6 points, 24.6 average, 9 INTs
8. Matt Ryan: 259.0 points, 23.5 average, 10 INTs
9. Ben Roethlisberger: 248.5 points, 22.5 average, 10 INTs
10. Philip Rivers: 247.4 points, 22.4 average, 17 INTs
11. Mark Sanchez: 243.6 points, 22.1 average, 11 INTs
12. Ryan Fitzpatrick: 240.7 points, 21.8 average, 14 INTs
13. Andy Dalton: 222.5 points, 20.2 average, 12 INTs
14. Matt Schaub: 219.8 points, 21.9 average, 6 INTs
15. Josh Freeman: 218.0 points, 19.8 average, 16 INTs
16. Michael Vick: 215.1 points, 23.9 average, 11 INTs
17. Joe Flacco: 212.6 points, 19.3 average, 8 INTs
18. Matt Hasselbeck: 210.1 points, 19.1 average, 10 INTs
19. Colt McCoy: 203.8 points, 18.5 average, 8 INTs
20. Alex Smith: 198.2 points, 18.0 average, 5 INTs

Now with -2 points for every interception:

1. Aaron Rodgers: 393.2 points
2. Drew Brees: 340.6 points
3. Tom Brady: 334.8 points
4. Cam Newton: 307.0 points
5. Matthew Stafford: 294.3 points
6. Eli Manning: 271.3 points
7. Tony Romo: 262.6 points
8. Matt Ryan: 249.0 points
9. Ben Roethlisberger: 238.5 points
10. Philip Rivers: 230.4 points
11. Mark Sanchez: 232.6 points
12. Ryan Fitzpatrick: 226.7 points
13. Andy Dalton: 210.5 points
14. Matt Schaub: 213.8 points
15. Josh Freeman: 202.0 points
16. Michael Vick: 204.1 points
17. Joe Flacco: 204.6 points
18. Matt Hasselbeck: 200.1 points
19. Colt McCoy: 195.8 points
20. Alex Smith: 193.2 points

Did this really change the QB landscape? No, the top QBs are still the top QBs. Rodgers has 4 INTs and the 20th QB has 5 INTs. Most have between 10 and 12. All it really did was lower the point production of the QBs by less than a point per game. So for those who dislike 6 points per passing TD, why would another point for interceptions make things worse?

I hate to even ask the question because this isn't the thread for the debate, but the analysis doesn't show a big discrepency among QBs, other than Rodgers' miniscule total of INTs. [/QUOTE]Sorry I got off topic Greg.

Wayne

eliasond · Post by **eliasond** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:55 am

I like the 4 team playoff idea for both classic and primetime. Exact format not as important as the # of teams. It's frustrating now that you can finish in 2nd in both H2H and pts out of 12 teams and get nothing except a trip to the constipation round against 300 other teams.

Keep QB TD's at 6.

Make all INT and lost fumbles -2. I agree with Greg that over the course of a whole season it doesn't make much difference in the total score/ranking. The true impact is in the week that you are playing against Stafford with a bunch of INT's, his score should be penalized instead of it being insignificant. Put another way, when many QB's are scoring 25-30 pts in a game, a penalty of -1 is insignificant to his score even if he throws 4 INT's.

I would actually be in favor of -3 for INT's like I have in one of my local leagues. Makes you think twice about drafting the 25th best QB and still expect to score 15-20 pts per game.

In summary, might as well get rid of the negatives altogether if they're not structured to have a true impact on the game or draft strategy.

Eddiejag · Post by **Eddiejag** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:59 am

Originally posted by King of Queens:
quote:Originally posted by BillyWaz:
Since this thread has been pretty much about the QB scoring, that is what I will focus on.

I like the 6 pt per TD. Yes, Rodgers, Brees, and Brady are well ahead of others, but so are Calvin and Welker. I remember in 2007 when people said the same thing about Brady and Moss.....and how did that turn out for their owners? They were a complete disappointment in the 3 week sprint.

And I am also betting that those who spent an early pick on Vick or Rivers aren't feeling too good right now. Conversely, I am betting there are plenty of playoff teams who have Newton or Eli at the helm.

If you go full PPR (which I think you should), you MUST keep the 6 pts per TD pass. Otherwise it is just going to be a RB feeding frenzy the first 2 rounds.

As for the INT's, I do see Wayne's point, as it sucks when there is a tipped pass and it is picked. However, what I find FAR more irritating is watching someone like Matthew Stafford (only using him because he is most recent) play a PITIFUL game on Thanksgiving Day throwing THREE picks and getting one garbage TD late and he still scores 21+ points! That just isn't right. I vote for -2 for the INT's.

Bottom line with the QB in these leagues is if you feel you can find the Cam, Eli, etc. you build everything else up and wait.

If you want that big stud QB, you take him, but you know you are giving up a potential great position player.

I think it is what makes the strategy here at the NFFC so great. Not sure if this could be programmed, but how about this for interceptions?

1st interception: -1 points
2nd interception: -2 points
3rd interception: -3 points
4th interception: -4 points

So if a QB has a truly horrific performance, it's going to cost him dearly (negative 10 points for a 4 INT game). [/QUOTE]Hmmm Suppose the Gambler came up with this idea would he have been accepted by the special secret club,Or just get crushed by everyone because he's a wcoff guy or just a newbie.

Sorry but reading this post from the King made me think of the Gambler.