NFFC Offers Discount Plan To Unpaid Owners From Other Events

RiFF · Post by **RiFF** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:48 pm

Greg,

Thank you for the response. My question was....am I missing something, and your response clearly tells me I wasn't. I fully understand the need for promotion and the economies of scale brought about by a larger customer base. The part I found a little disingenuous was the apparent expression of altruism by putting out a helping hand to our poor abused HSFF brethren. The fact is, you see a potential large base of potential NFFC participants and you are willing to pay to get them on board. And as a business manager that is certainly your perrogative and probably a good business decision. You correctly see it, in your example, as a $42,000. promotional expense. My only point was/is that as a loyal long term NFFC participant I do not have the opportunity to participate in the promotion.
I've never played in WCOFF so I wasn't aware of their promotion of providing a $500 discount for entering a 2nd team. But I would have zero problem with it if I had been a WCOFF participant; simply because I could choose to take advantage of it if I wanted to. If I chose not to I would not have a problem with people who did.
Also I really don't see any of the analogies presented as being applicable to this situation including dayworkers, donuts or multi national billion dollar corporations. HSFF is a close knit fraternity made up of a few hundred participants who, for the most part, know one another in some capacity. To single out one facet of that fraternity, who for the most part has had nothing to do with your success to date and reward them while not allowing your loyal customers to participate just seems wrong. On the other hand it doesn't seem to bother any of the other respondents, so I may be in the minority (or maybe silent majority)
Anyhow, maybe I'll take a "year off" and possibly be eligible to participate in a bring back former NFFCers promotion next year.
From a pure business perspective I think it's a smart promotion as long as you don't pi$$ off too many existing customers.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:56 pm

Riff, if I remember correctly the NFFC last year offered a free entry to our fellow fantasy football player who made the news because he lost his job for breaking a ridiculous rule that disallowed fantasy football at his workplace. Where was the profit benefit in that altruism?

I'm not saying there is no potential benefit to the long term growth of this contest in this offer to those who may get hurt if the WCOFF goes under. However, acts of generosity with no potential gains certainly have a precedent here. I think Greg & Tom have earned the benefit of the doubt here and deserve our support.

RiFF · Post by **RiFF** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:05 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:
Riff, if I remember correctly the NFFC last year offered a free entry to our fellow fantasy football player who made the news because he lost his job for breaking a ridiculous rule that disallowed fantasy football at his workplace. Where was the profit benefit in that altruism?

I'm not saying there is no potential benefit to the long term growth of this contest in this offer to those who may get hurt if the WCOFF goes under. However, acts of generosity with no potential gains certainly have a precedent here. I think Greg & Tom have earned the benefit of the doubt here and deserve our support. listen Glenn, I appreciate and respect your noble stance on this issue; as I do the others who have posted expressing their support.

My problem is, I'm a bit of a bottom line guy who also values loyalty. Regardless of which way the loyalty is flowing.

This promotion, which I see pretty much as Greg laid out is in direct opposition to how I would approach it. Again I believe it is nothing more than existing loyal customers subsidizing NFFC's push to bring in new customers. And I see it that way by simply looking at the numbers. Greg claims that the ME pays out at an 75% level based on his projected number of participants and the entry fee he is charging those participants. That fee being $1400.
Now, in his example, if he attracts 200 new customers with this promotion and does NOT increase either the payout at the league level NOR the payout at the Championship level the loyal existing customers paying $1400 are NOT now getting a 75% payout. The extra 75% of the revenue being generated by the new customers that should have gone into the payout pool is partially being used to provide discounts to those new customers. Greg obviously will still pay league prizes for these new customers but the additional revenue that should be being used to increase the Championship prize pool is instead being used to help offset the $210 discount being provided to new customers. And obviously with 200 new customers you're odds of winning money at the Championship level have diminished.
Therefore my simplistic view of it is by getting less than a 75% payback, based on a $1400 entry fee I'm helping Greg pay for attracting new customers (subsidizing)
Sorry, I have a problem with that. And you certainly have every right not to have a problem with it Just don't kid yourself and believe you're not contributing if you particiupate at the $1400 while others are at $1190. I didn't take the time to actually calculate how much of the $42,000 promotional expense used by Greg in his example, to attract new customers, is being paid by existing customers through a lower payout percent and how much is actually being paid by NFFC ; But intuitively I'd guess a higher percent is being absorbed by existing customers.

Additionally I question how much long term loyalty these new customers will actually have to NFFC. NFFC has been around for 7 years, yet none of these customers Greg is trying to attract have shown any interest in NFFC. Clearly, if they can get around a 90% payback they would be stupid not to have some interest if they intended to continue playing HSFF. But next year when the payout rate returns to 75%, what percentage of these customers will continue playing here. Sure, I suspect a high percentage of the ones that won money will probably return; but I do question what percentage of the remaining group will return. Or maybe Greg will expect us to subsidize them for a 2nd year (obviously being facetious)

Again, you and others have every right to support and contribute to Greg's promotion, but again, I'm sorry I feel differently.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:28 am

To me, this is like being upset about someone getting food stamps. You pay your taxes, you're a good citizen, etc. Why shouldn't YOU get the free food as well? Now ask youself: would you really want to be in that guy's shoes?

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:39 am

Rich, our payout percentage will not change or be impacted. If we were to exceed our projected numbers for the Classic and/or Primetime, we would adjust the prizes accordingly. We have always done that with the NFFC and/or NFBC if we exceeded projected goals.

RiFF · Post by **RiFF** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:47 am

Originally posted by King of Queens:
To me, this is like being upset about someone getting food stamps. You pay your taxes, you're a good citizen, etc. Why shouldn't YOU get the free food as well? Now ask youself: would you really want to be in that guy's shoes? Again, I don't see the relevance of that analogy. I'm not a WCOFF participant but if I did my due diligence and decided to participate I would not expect someone else to subsidize my losses, whether those losses were based on my not winning any money or if I won money and WCOFF did not pay me.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone playing HSFF is on food stamps. If they are they should not be playing. I believe there are free games at various sites that would probably be more appropriate.
As far as charity is concerned, I'm a staunch believer that everyone has the obligation to provide as much as they feel comfortable with to those in need. Personaaly I do it by sponsoring a number of children through the Christian Children's Fund. I also contribute to the police ( my eldest son is a police officer) and to the cancer society and even still make an annual contribution to United Way even though I'm retired and am no longer pressured to do so. My point is, I'm a strong strong believer in chartible efforts. I do NOT consider contributing to Greg's promotion effort as a worthy charitible cause. Again, I fault no one that does.

RiFF · Post by **RiFF** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:59 am

Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Rich, our payout percentage will not change or be impacted. If we were to exceed our projected numbers for the Classic and/or Primetime, we would adjust the prizes accordingly. We have always done that with the NFFC and/or NFBC if we exceeded projected goals. This is why I asked if I was missing something. I would be interested in understanding how that would work. For instance, in your base case you were assuming 322 participants; let's assume you get another 322 at the $1190 level; would you now calculate your increase in payouts assuming ALL 644 participants paid at the $1400. level? If so, then that takes care of 50% of my objection. Actually probably a bit more.....as a 5 year participant I would still feel a little slighted that a completely new participant is playing for $1190 while its costing me $1400. That's the loyalty factor.

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:14 am

Rich, I completely understand where you're coming from. Greg and I met with our CEO last week and when we proposed this idea we knew there would be some of our long-time players who would feel slighted. So we totally understand your viewpoint. However, as Greg has said this is something we are doing not for the short-term, but the long-term and specifically for the long-term health of the Live Event industry. We do not want good players leaving because one event (or more depending on their history) did not pay them prizes or put them through an ordeal to receive what is rightfully theirs.

Also, this isn't something new. We did this with Jared Danielsen, who encountered similar problems with AFFL in 2008. He joined us and is now one of our top participants in both the NFFC and NFBC. At the end of the day, we believe this is money well spent because it's our belief that those people who join us will like what they see and remain committed to the Live Event business, which means everyone (including our vets) will prosper.

All of our prize payouts are based on full entry charges. So if we were to exceed our goals with any of our national events the prize structure would be reflected accordingly. Again, this is something we've done with both the NFBC and NFFC before. The Online Championship for both events (now the Double Play in the NFBC) is a perfect example of how we adjusted the prize structure when we exceeded our goals.

However, we will put a cap on the number of teams that we'll have in any event so everyone knows their chances of winning beforehand. The NFFC Classic will have no more than 420 teams this year while the Primetime will have no more than 720. That's stated in our rules.

RiFF · Post by **RiFF** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:33 am

It's really good to understand that existing customers will not absorb any of the promotional expense. But as you point out It's also understandable that some long time customers feel a bit of loyalty betrayal by not being a part of the promotion. But, I do have far less problems with the structure understanding existing customers won't be impacted by lower payout rates.
But again the obvious problem is, NFFC saying we've got some good news and we've got some bad news. the good news....we're annoucing a big promotion that will put $42,000. (using Greg's example) into the pockets of our customers. The bad news.....none of our loyal existing customer base is eligible for any part of that $42,000.

[ June 13, 2011, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: RiFF ]

thegambler · Post by **thegambler** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:46 am

new guy thinking of trying the nffc out or going to the ffpc. i have to admit the discount might get me to come here. yeah i know it is only a couple of hundred dollars but it is the fact these owners are thinking about players that don't play here. trying to make people, that got screwed, comfortable again to play fantasy football and give them thousands of dollars in the hope of winning the big one and getting paid if they do.

i think what you are doing is a very cool thing, and me being one of the stupid people that rolled money over in the wcoff makes me appreciate it more. the money i will lose from the wcoff i will make up here with the discount. hopefully i like it here and will be back for several years to come. i was a 9 year wcoff vet, now i am looking for a new home. i don't like jumping around from league to league every year.....i want to get comfortable somewhere and become loyal to them like i was to the wcoff.

big props and a good business decision from tom and greg