I recently heard about this league and really like the idea of regional drafts and no events fee (I was in WCOFF last year). But the one thing that I'm leary of is the combination of the large league size (14 teams) and the large starting roster size (basically 6 RBs/WRs starting).
To a point, spreading talent thin brings the best owners forward but I think this passes over the edge and luck becomes even more important. There will probably be on avg about 13 RBs/WRs on a team - that's 180+ in the league with 84 starting. Talent will be so thin that any injury, suspension, etc will have major implications. Hitting on a backup will be more luck than skill. And very little will be available in free agency especially after the first few weeks.
I'd also hate picking at either end in the draft and watching 26 players go between picks.
I hope this league does great - its got a few things really going for it. The more big-time fantasy options the better. I just question if 14 teams is the way to go. I'd rather pay an extra $100 and go with 12 teams. I'm interested to know how other feel about this.
14 Team Leagues
14 Team Leagues
Originally posted by Barflies:
I recently heard about this league and really like the idea of regional drafts and no events fee (I was in WCOFF last year). But the one thing that I'm leary of is the combination of the large league size (14 teams) and the large starting roster size (basically 6 RBs/WRs starting).
To a point, spreading talent thin brings the best owners forward but I think this passes over the edge and luck becomes even more important. There will probably be on avg about 13 RBs/WRs on a team - that's 180+ in the league with 84 starting. Talent will be so thin that any injury, suspension, etc will have major implications. Hitting on a backup will be more luck than skill. And very little will be available in free agency especially after the first few weeks.
I'd also hate picking at either end in the draft and watching 26 players go between picks.
I hope this league does great - its got a few things really going for it. The more big-time fantasy options the better. I just question if 14 teams is the way to go. I'd rather pay an extra $100 and go with 12 teams. I'm interested to know how other feel about this. I would argue that it takes zero skill to draft Priest Holmes but it takes a lot of research and expertise to look at Santana Moss having a breakout season. If you want to toss everything into the 'you got him because you're lucky' pile then you'll never understand why some owners or managers are winning consistently. I think we've all seen the formula for the 12 team league, right? If you draft a QB in the first 5-6 rounds you're an idiot. You get 2 RB with your first 2 picks no matter which pick you have - then you get a 3rd string RB and 3 WR with your next 4 picks and then round 7 or 8 or 9 you get a decent QB and come back for another one 2 rounds later so you have matchups to choose from, etc. Skill? Nah - I don't see what you're talking about there. What I'm hoping in this format is that QB becomes a valuable position instead of an afterthought. Being able to project the Santana Mosses of the world should be far more important than 'knowing' that Randy Moss is pretty good.
In this format you'll need to do your homework... you'll need to pick sleepers at the right time because everyone will have 2-4 sleepers starting for them.
The FA pool will be far from dry... but no question you'll have to be skillful with your FA budget. Is it so bad that the contest isn't over on draft day?
Oh, and it's not $100 difference to play 14 team vs. 12 team when you add in the 'mandatory' events fees. Don't let them kid you - that's your entry fee
I've played WCOFF, too - and you know as well as I do that draft position is way too important over there. The 14 team league devalues the draft positions at the top. I like being able to have a strategy and win from any post.
I don't see the negatives you do - but bring it on and let's give it a try. Hard work will definitely be more rewarded here and that's what I'm looking for.
Dave/Dyv
I recently heard about this league and really like the idea of regional drafts and no events fee (I was in WCOFF last year). But the one thing that I'm leary of is the combination of the large league size (14 teams) and the large starting roster size (basically 6 RBs/WRs starting).
To a point, spreading talent thin brings the best owners forward but I think this passes over the edge and luck becomes even more important. There will probably be on avg about 13 RBs/WRs on a team - that's 180+ in the league with 84 starting. Talent will be so thin that any injury, suspension, etc will have major implications. Hitting on a backup will be more luck than skill. And very little will be available in free agency especially after the first few weeks.
I'd also hate picking at either end in the draft and watching 26 players go between picks.
I hope this league does great - its got a few things really going for it. The more big-time fantasy options the better. I just question if 14 teams is the way to go. I'd rather pay an extra $100 and go with 12 teams. I'm interested to know how other feel about this. I would argue that it takes zero skill to draft Priest Holmes but it takes a lot of research and expertise to look at Santana Moss having a breakout season. If you want to toss everything into the 'you got him because you're lucky' pile then you'll never understand why some owners or managers are winning consistently. I think we've all seen the formula for the 12 team league, right? If you draft a QB in the first 5-6 rounds you're an idiot. You get 2 RB with your first 2 picks no matter which pick you have - then you get a 3rd string RB and 3 WR with your next 4 picks and then round 7 or 8 or 9 you get a decent QB and come back for another one 2 rounds later so you have matchups to choose from, etc. Skill? Nah - I don't see what you're talking about there. What I'm hoping in this format is that QB becomes a valuable position instead of an afterthought. Being able to project the Santana Mosses of the world should be far more important than 'knowing' that Randy Moss is pretty good.
In this format you'll need to do your homework... you'll need to pick sleepers at the right time because everyone will have 2-4 sleepers starting for them.
The FA pool will be far from dry... but no question you'll have to be skillful with your FA budget. Is it so bad that the contest isn't over on draft day?
Oh, and it's not $100 difference to play 14 team vs. 12 team when you add in the 'mandatory' events fees. Don't let them kid you - that's your entry fee
I've played WCOFF, too - and you know as well as I do that draft position is way too important over there. The 14 team league devalues the draft positions at the top. I like being able to have a strategy and win from any post.
I don't see the negatives you do - but bring it on and let's give it a try. Hard work will definitely be more rewarded here and that's what I'm looking for.
Dave/Dyv
The Wonderful thing about Dyv's is I'm the only one!
14 Team Leagues
Moss is a bad example. Last year he would have been a mid-level drafted WR with 90+ WRs drafted in the league. He would have been drafted by someone looking to play him often. A good pick in a 12 or 14 team league - he doesn't play into this debate. You'll be drafting NFL teams' 3rd string RBs and 4th string WRs - and forced to start some of them. Those are the guys that will be a crapshoot whether they do anything.
I was not trying to say WCOFF is a better setup/deal just that I'd rather if this league went to 12 teams (and boosted the fee $100, which they would need to offset extra league prizes).
Also, I like the QB rule. Just not the 14 team league format.
I was not trying to say WCOFF is a better setup/deal just that I'd rather if this league went to 12 teams (and boosted the fee $100, which they would need to offset extra league prizes).
Also, I like the QB rule. Just not the 14 team league format.
14 Team Leagues
Couple of points.
It's foolish to suggest that 12-team drafts have a "simple formula" or somehow require less FF knowledge or skill. Having said that, I do agree that this particular draft will be quite challenging, mostly due to the fact that there will be 280 total players drafted. This will certainly be the deepest draft most of us have ever been part of and will require a lot of effort. It is true that most teams would be starting team's 3rd and maybe even 4th string WRs, but drafting the more productive ones will require a lot of knowledge and not luck, since many of those WRs will be left undrafted.
Lastly, on the QBs. Even with the 14-team set up and the 6-point TDs, punch in the scoring rules for this league into your VBD spreadsheet and you will see that QBs have NO MORE value than they do in a league like WCOFF. Running backs are still golden, followed by WRs. Those who pass on a second tier RB or a top WR to draft a guy like Manning in the 2nd round will be chasing RBs and WRs for the next 5 rounds.
It's foolish to suggest that 12-team drafts have a "simple formula" or somehow require less FF knowledge or skill. Having said that, I do agree that this particular draft will be quite challenging, mostly due to the fact that there will be 280 total players drafted. This will certainly be the deepest draft most of us have ever been part of and will require a lot of effort. It is true that most teams would be starting team's 3rd and maybe even 4th string WRs, but drafting the more productive ones will require a lot of knowledge and not luck, since many of those WRs will be left undrafted.
Lastly, on the QBs. Even with the 14-team set up and the 6-point TDs, punch in the scoring rules for this league into your VBD spreadsheet and you will see that QBs have NO MORE value than they do in a league like WCOFF. Running backs are still golden, followed by WRs. Those who pass on a second tier RB or a top WR to draft a guy like Manning in the 2nd round will be chasing RBs and WRs for the next 5 rounds.
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14 Team Leagues
Originally posted by Nag':
Couple of points.
It's foolish to suggest that 12-team drafts have a "simple formula" or somehow require less FF knowledge or skill. Having said that, I do agree that this particular draft will be quite challenging, mostly due to the fact that there will be 280 total players drafted. This will certainly be the deepest draft most of us have ever been part of and will require a lot of effort. It is true that most teams would be starting team's 3rd and maybe even 4th string WRs, but drafting the more productive ones will require a lot of knowledge and not luck, since many of those WRs will be left undrafted.
Lastly, on the QBs. Even with the 14-team set up and the 6-point TDs, punch in the scoring rules for this league into your VBD spreadsheet and you will see that QBs have NO MORE value than they do in a league like WCOFF. Running backs are still golden, followed by WRs. Those who pass on a second tier RB or a top WR to draft a guy like Manning in the 2nd round will be chasing RBs and WRs for the next 5 rounds. Foolish or not - I only speak the truth
As for QB's having NO MORE value? The VBD for QB's will tell you that point production isn't going to be significantly different from #1 to #10 in QB and in a 12 team league there was less emphasis on getting your starter early because you could get 'mostly the same guy' later. What about the difference between the #1 QB and the #14 QB? Obviously there begins to be a drop-off somewhere. It's a fact that QB's can be the highest scoring position on your roster, but there is not an infinite number of them, either. You'll have to pick your spot with QB's just like any other position on when you think the drop off is going to occur and make sure you get one of the top 6 or 8 or 12... but if you think there are 15 good QB and wait too long, you may find your leaguemates scoop up good backups before you get a starter. TE, K and D become more valuable as well IMHO. You need production from everywhere in your lineup and there will probably not be good quality replacements in FA.
Oh, why would Moss be a bad example? Should I say Anquin Boldin?
Dyv
Couple of points.
It's foolish to suggest that 12-team drafts have a "simple formula" or somehow require less FF knowledge or skill. Having said that, I do agree that this particular draft will be quite challenging, mostly due to the fact that there will be 280 total players drafted. This will certainly be the deepest draft most of us have ever been part of and will require a lot of effort. It is true that most teams would be starting team's 3rd and maybe even 4th string WRs, but drafting the more productive ones will require a lot of knowledge and not luck, since many of those WRs will be left undrafted.
Lastly, on the QBs. Even with the 14-team set up and the 6-point TDs, punch in the scoring rules for this league into your VBD spreadsheet and you will see that QBs have NO MORE value than they do in a league like WCOFF. Running backs are still golden, followed by WRs. Those who pass on a second tier RB or a top WR to draft a guy like Manning in the 2nd round will be chasing RBs and WRs for the next 5 rounds. Foolish or not - I only speak the truth
As for QB's having NO MORE value? The VBD for QB's will tell you that point production isn't going to be significantly different from #1 to #10 in QB and in a 12 team league there was less emphasis on getting your starter early because you could get 'mostly the same guy' later. What about the difference between the #1 QB and the #14 QB? Obviously there begins to be a drop-off somewhere. It's a fact that QB's can be the highest scoring position on your roster, but there is not an infinite number of them, either. You'll have to pick your spot with QB's just like any other position on when you think the drop off is going to occur and make sure you get one of the top 6 or 8 or 12... but if you think there are 15 good QB and wait too long, you may find your leaguemates scoop up good backups before you get a starter. TE, K and D become more valuable as well IMHO. You need production from everywhere in your lineup and there will probably not be good quality replacements in FA.
Oh, why would Moss be a bad example? Should I say Anquin Boldin?
Dyv
The Wonderful thing about Dyv's is I'm the only one!
14 Team Leagues
I'm not suggesting to approach drafting a QB in a 14-teamer as you would in a 12-teamer. Obviously the strategy may differ. What I am saying is that according to the VBD, QBs are no more important here than they are in a 12-team draft. Maybe even less so. You mention the giant difference between starting QB1 and QB14; What about the difference between starting RB1 and RB28 or the difference between starting WR1 and WR42, and I'm not even mentioning the flex spot?
PS. One last point about your comments on draft strategy in a 12-teamer. The 2003 WCOFF Grand Champion drafted RB/WR/WR/TE in the first 4 rounds.
Rebuttle?
PS. One last point about your comments on draft strategy in a 12-teamer. The 2003 WCOFF Grand Champion drafted RB/WR/WR/TE in the first 4 rounds.
Rebuttle?
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Greg Ambrosius
- Posts: 36412
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:00 pm
14 Team Leagues
Barflies, you bring up good points about the 14-team league concept and I wrestled with this when I devised the rules. My goal was to make the regular season meaningful and thus I wanted a 13-game season instead of an 11-game season like the WCOFF has and I also wanted to create a unique contest that didn't just duplicate what everyone else is offering. Thus the larger league size made sense and adding more points to quarterbacks added a new strategy.
I agree that there are certain draft positions that are tough in a 14-team league, but everyone is in the same boat in this situation. I don't think anyone will leave the draft feeling they got a top-flight starter at every position and there may be some teams who will have trouble fielding two starting backs each week. The weekly scoring overall might be down per team in comparison to other high stakes games, but overall everyone should be fighting for those same points. I actually think there is more strategy and skill needed for a 14-team league than a 12-team league, but that wasn't the premise of the setup at all, take my word for it.
For $1,250, I wanted to provide a full regular season and a draft that was unique. I disagree that the free agent pool will be thin as last year produced Anquan Boldin, Domanick Davis and Rudi Johnson, just to name a few. There are always No. 4 wideouts who emerge as productive scorers and in this type of deep league owners will need to continually add them to their rosters with the hope that they can fill a starting spot for them during some weeks.
I think Dyv is correct that this is a unique contest and it will take a lot of skill to win this overall title. I hope players in other high stakes contests see our regional concept and decide to do ours and the other games. We are $485 less than the WCOFF because we are picking up the bill for the hotel meeting rooms, food and beverage minimums, we have no hotel requirement and the entry fee is lower by $200. Both models work, but our regional concept is to get you to play our game and enjoy our event, not have you stay at our hotel and eat and drink our food and beverage.
I hope the 14-team league setup is seen as a positive, not a negative. But I certainly look forward to the feedback and tips on ways we can make this contest even better. As you know from your experience in the NFBC, we listen to our customers and make changes that make sense. Keep providing them and we'll consider all of them.
Hey, you didn't say anything about our kicking points!! .1 for every yard after 30 yards is unique, isn't it?
I agree that there are certain draft positions that are tough in a 14-team league, but everyone is in the same boat in this situation. I don't think anyone will leave the draft feeling they got a top-flight starter at every position and there may be some teams who will have trouble fielding two starting backs each week. The weekly scoring overall might be down per team in comparison to other high stakes games, but overall everyone should be fighting for those same points. I actually think there is more strategy and skill needed for a 14-team league than a 12-team league, but that wasn't the premise of the setup at all, take my word for it.
For $1,250, I wanted to provide a full regular season and a draft that was unique. I disagree that the free agent pool will be thin as last year produced Anquan Boldin, Domanick Davis and Rudi Johnson, just to name a few. There are always No. 4 wideouts who emerge as productive scorers and in this type of deep league owners will need to continually add them to their rosters with the hope that they can fill a starting spot for them during some weeks.
I think Dyv is correct that this is a unique contest and it will take a lot of skill to win this overall title. I hope players in other high stakes contests see our regional concept and decide to do ours and the other games. We are $485 less than the WCOFF because we are picking up the bill for the hotel meeting rooms, food and beverage minimums, we have no hotel requirement and the entry fee is lower by $200. Both models work, but our regional concept is to get you to play our game and enjoy our event, not have you stay at our hotel and eat and drink our food and beverage.
I hope the 14-team league setup is seen as a positive, not a negative. But I certainly look forward to the feedback and tips on ways we can make this contest even better. As you know from your experience in the NFBC, we listen to our customers and make changes that make sense. Keep providing them and we'll consider all of them.
Hey, you didn't say anything about our kicking points!! .1 for every yard after 30 yards is unique, isn't it?
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius
14 Team Leagues
Originally posted by Nag':
I'm not suggesting to approach drafting a QB in a 14-teamer as you would in a 12-teamer. Obviously the strategy may differ. What I am saying is that according to the VBD, QBs are no more important here than they are in a 12-team draft. Maybe even less so. You mention the giant difference between starting QB1 and QB14; What about the difference between starting RB1 and RB28 or the difference between starting WR1 and WR42, and I'm not even mentioning the flex spot?
PS. One last point about your comments on draft strategy in a 12-teamer. The 2003 WCOFF Grand Champion drafted RB/WR/WR/TE in the first 4 rounds.
Rebuttle? So, would you rather have the last QB on the list scoring you 15 pts. per game or the last RB on the list scoring you 4? QB's are quantifiably eqiuvalent, but not endless in depth. You can go 40 deep in RB if you get your goal line backs and 3rd down backs involved... perhaps 50 deep into productive players. If 5 teams get 3 QB each in the first 12 rounds of the draft... you're going to miss out on a LOT of points on a bye week. Scarcity becomes the issue. It's like closers in baseball - there are only so many, even if they all put up 25-35 saves as a norm.
WCOFF Champ: Wow, what good fortune to get Priest Holmes? A pure skill play there
In all seriousness, when I offer up a 'formula' that isn't any guarantee of success - you still need to make good choices and you still need to stay healthy. He landed QB late, he got high end WR... he got a good kicker, a good defense and made some good RB gambles (A-train and Westbrook) which obviously paid off for him. If you deviate from using your first 4 picks on RB and WR (presumably RB/RB/WR/WR) then you make it that much MORE difficult to win. Not impossible - you could theoretically skip your first 2 picks and nail all the sleepers and avoid all injuries and still win. I just wouldn't advise it for consistency of performance
It's still all about player projections and drafting. You can't win it all on draft day, but you can lose it.
Sorry if I'm being too firm with my outrageous statements - but fantasy footbal is pretty simple in a points environment and VBD is used to illustrate that point. Games like roto baseball require far more compromises because things like winning HR category by 80 HR is useless and stupid. In Football, you can never have enough TD.
Dave
p.s. Although I had some success in the Draftmaster format last year, I didn't make the main event because my damn brother got married on draft day. Friggin' rude, inconsiderate *(&)*&)#@@. In 2002, I finished 3rd in my league - 15 pts. shy of the playoffs where I would have won handily. Such is life
I'm not suggesting to approach drafting a QB in a 14-teamer as you would in a 12-teamer. Obviously the strategy may differ. What I am saying is that according to the VBD, QBs are no more important here than they are in a 12-team draft. Maybe even less so. You mention the giant difference between starting QB1 and QB14; What about the difference between starting RB1 and RB28 or the difference between starting WR1 and WR42, and I'm not even mentioning the flex spot?
PS. One last point about your comments on draft strategy in a 12-teamer. The 2003 WCOFF Grand Champion drafted RB/WR/WR/TE in the first 4 rounds.
Rebuttle? So, would you rather have the last QB on the list scoring you 15 pts. per game or the last RB on the list scoring you 4? QB's are quantifiably eqiuvalent, but not endless in depth. You can go 40 deep in RB if you get your goal line backs and 3rd down backs involved... perhaps 50 deep into productive players. If 5 teams get 3 QB each in the first 12 rounds of the draft... you're going to miss out on a LOT of points on a bye week. Scarcity becomes the issue. It's like closers in baseball - there are only so many, even if they all put up 25-35 saves as a norm.
WCOFF Champ: Wow, what good fortune to get Priest Holmes? A pure skill play there
In all seriousness, when I offer up a 'formula' that isn't any guarantee of success - you still need to make good choices and you still need to stay healthy. He landed QB late, he got high end WR... he got a good kicker, a good defense and made some good RB gambles (A-train and Westbrook) which obviously paid off for him. If you deviate from using your first 4 picks on RB and WR (presumably RB/RB/WR/WR) then you make it that much MORE difficult to win. Not impossible - you could theoretically skip your first 2 picks and nail all the sleepers and avoid all injuries and still win. I just wouldn't advise it for consistency of performance
It's still all about player projections and drafting. You can't win it all on draft day, but you can lose it.
Sorry if I'm being too firm with my outrageous statements - but fantasy footbal is pretty simple in a points environment and VBD is used to illustrate that point. Games like roto baseball require far more compromises because things like winning HR category by 80 HR is useless and stupid. In Football, you can never have enough TD.
Dave
p.s. Although I had some success in the Draftmaster format last year, I didn't make the main event because my damn brother got married on draft day. Friggin' rude, inconsiderate *(&)*&)#@@. In 2002, I finished 3rd in my league - 15 pts. shy of the playoffs where I would have won handily. Such is life
The Wonderful thing about Dyv's is I'm the only one!
14 Team Leagues
Originally posted by Dyv:
So, would you rather have the last QB on the list scoring you 15 pts. per game or the last RB on the list scoring you 4? QB's are quantifiably eqiuvalent, but not endless in depth. You can go 40 deep in RB if you get your goal line backs and 3rd down backs involved... perhaps 50 deep into productive players. If 5 teams get 3 QB each in the first 12 rounds of the draft... you're going to miss out on a LOT of points on a bye week. Scarcity becomes the issue. It's like closers in baseball - there are only so many, even if they all put up 25-35 saves as a norm.There's no agrument that positions become scarce much faster in a 14-teamer draft and it's is a strong possibility that an owner may have to draft a QB earlier than he is used to. But once again, my original point was in reference to the difference in QB value in 12-teamers as opposed to 14. Although your statements are NOT wrong, I'm just not sure you're in full comprehension of VBD and it's effect on drafting a QB vs RB and WR.
Originally posted by Dyv:
In all seriousness, when I offer up a 'formula' that isn't any guarantee of success - you still need to make good choices and you still need to stay healthy.You insinuated that a 12-team draft is easy because it has a "formula" for success. Obviously that statement is untrue and you seem to back away from it now, which you shoud. I think the WCOFF champ's draft is indisputable evidence to that fact.
PS. As a matter of fact I won my individual WCOFF league (#35) last year drafting RB/WR/WR/TE as well!!
[ May 06, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Nag' ]
So, would you rather have the last QB on the list scoring you 15 pts. per game or the last RB on the list scoring you 4? QB's are quantifiably eqiuvalent, but not endless in depth. You can go 40 deep in RB if you get your goal line backs and 3rd down backs involved... perhaps 50 deep into productive players. If 5 teams get 3 QB each in the first 12 rounds of the draft... you're going to miss out on a LOT of points on a bye week. Scarcity becomes the issue. It's like closers in baseball - there are only so many, even if they all put up 25-35 saves as a norm.There's no agrument that positions become scarce much faster in a 14-teamer draft and it's is a strong possibility that an owner may have to draft a QB earlier than he is used to. But once again, my original point was in reference to the difference in QB value in 12-teamers as opposed to 14. Although your statements are NOT wrong, I'm just not sure you're in full comprehension of VBD and it's effect on drafting a QB vs RB and WR.
Originally posted by Dyv:
In all seriousness, when I offer up a 'formula' that isn't any guarantee of success - you still need to make good choices and you still need to stay healthy.You insinuated that a 12-team draft is easy because it has a "formula" for success. Obviously that statement is untrue and you seem to back away from it now, which you shoud. I think the WCOFF champ's draft is indisputable evidence to that fact.
PS. As a matter of fact I won my individual WCOFF league (#35) last year drafting RB/WR/WR/TE as well!!
[ May 06, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Nag' ]
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14 Team Leagues
I have been in a 14 team league for 6 years, it will draft differently than a 12 team league, what you will want to do is go ahead and draft a strong defense in round one then follow that up with a strong legged kicker in round two, JUST REMEMBER DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS AND KICKERS WIN THE CLOSE GAMES!!!
Bill Ezzell
Bill Ezzell
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