Originally posted by Dyv:
Zaleski - I understand you have a lot of 14 team league experience, but do you feel that from top to bottom the owners in your leagues are 'as good as' or 'experienced as' or 'prepared as' the owners in the NFFC leagues? (there are notable exceptions)
Dyv Top to bottom? Yes, and that includes the bottom.
Having input in draft slot selection
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ultimatefs
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Having input in draft slot selection
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.
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ultimatefs
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Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by Dyv:
I know the politically correct answer is that your gamers are fantastic and brilliant and they all rock the world, but the reality is you might have 20-30-100 people playing on your system who are (can I say this?) 'at our level' of addiction to fantasy sports. Is it true that if your top 20 played each other one would always win? I think the NFFC has brough some kooks out of the woodwork, but also a significant amount of 'good' gamers. Throw your top 20 into the NFFC next year and tell me if they dominate or not? I've never found a gamer I couldn't beat... but I've found some I can't lose to because they are so ridiculously clueless.
Dyv Our level of addiction? Most of mine have been in the same leagues since 1990.
Is it true? What kind of silly question is that?
I don't have 20X$1250 to "throw" my guys in. I can certainly invite them. I sent very late notice this year to them.
The Top 20 would easily compete at the same level as the top 20 here. As would the bottom 20.
You lost to a certain gamer twice last week. LOL.
But I've found.... that's a given and never will go away.
Hope you're not in search of some holy grail you'll never find.
I know the politically correct answer is that your gamers are fantastic and brilliant and they all rock the world, but the reality is you might have 20-30-100 people playing on your system who are (can I say this?) 'at our level' of addiction to fantasy sports. Is it true that if your top 20 played each other one would always win? I think the NFFC has brough some kooks out of the woodwork, but also a significant amount of 'good' gamers. Throw your top 20 into the NFFC next year and tell me if they dominate or not? I've never found a gamer I couldn't beat... but I've found some I can't lose to because they are so ridiculously clueless.
Dyv Our level of addiction? Most of mine have been in the same leagues since 1990.
Is it true? What kind of silly question is that?
I don't have 20X$1250 to "throw" my guys in. I can certainly invite them. I sent very late notice this year to them.
The Top 20 would easily compete at the same level as the top 20 here. As would the bottom 20.
You lost to a certain gamer twice last week. LOL.
But I've found.... that's a given and never will go away.
Hope you're not in search of some holy grail you'll never find.
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.
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ultimatefs
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- Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:00 pm
Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:
quote:Originally posted by UFS:
I know from 20 years that I have about 20 customers I can say w/o a shadow of a doubt, that draft position does not matter. They win, or finish in the money 97% of the time, no matter where the select. They are simply more skilled at playing the game, and they are better judges of talent. oh ya? get one of those 20 people to sign up for the mid-season league. with the way you talk, he should be able to eat us for lunch. put your money where your mouth is, right?
Originally posted by UFS:
So when you raise this question, it's not about the draft slot, it's about your level of play. That's BS. I believe draft slot does count. Level of play matters no matter which draft slot you have.
Originally posted by UFS:
You'll never see someone whom has mastered a skill ever complain about this type of thing. "Pros" always complain (instant replay, inside pitches, etc...). I think you are shooting in the dark.
Originally posted by UFS:
After 3 weeks here, I can already spot some of these owners by looking at their drafts and their FA moves. then you should have no problem cleaning up. [/QUOTE]LOL... This is like my 15 year olds telling me I'm wrong. No point in going any further. I'm talking about a level of play you obvoiusly have not reached.
Pros? Who was talking about Pros? I was talking about level of game playing. FYI... 98 of all "pros" have not mastered their skill either. Re:NBA.
quote:Originally posted by UFS:
I know from 20 years that I have about 20 customers I can say w/o a shadow of a doubt, that draft position does not matter. They win, or finish in the money 97% of the time, no matter where the select. They are simply more skilled at playing the game, and they are better judges of talent. oh ya? get one of those 20 people to sign up for the mid-season league. with the way you talk, he should be able to eat us for lunch. put your money where your mouth is, right?
Originally posted by UFS:
So when you raise this question, it's not about the draft slot, it's about your level of play. That's BS. I believe draft slot does count. Level of play matters no matter which draft slot you have.
Originally posted by UFS:
You'll never see someone whom has mastered a skill ever complain about this type of thing. "Pros" always complain (instant replay, inside pitches, etc...). I think you are shooting in the dark.
Originally posted by UFS:
After 3 weeks here, I can already spot some of these owners by looking at their drafts and their FA moves. then you should have no problem cleaning up. [/QUOTE]LOL... This is like my 15 year olds telling me I'm wrong. No point in going any further. I'm talking about a level of play you obvoiusly have not reached.
Pros? Who was talking about Pros? I was talking about level of game playing. FYI... 98 of all "pros" have not mastered their skill either. Re:NBA.
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.
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ultimatefs
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Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:
[QB]Yes, but you did rank draft position, so it does have some value. What data do you have to support your claim?
I have 20 years of data that proves it does not matter.
I proved in Hoops it did matter and fixed that a dozen years ago.
[QB]Yes, but you did rank draft position, so it does have some value. What data do you have to support your claim?
I have 20 years of data that proves it does not matter.
I proved in Hoops it did matter and fixed that a dozen years ago.
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.
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Gordon Gekko
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Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by UFS:
LOL... This is like my 15 year olds telling me I'm wrong. No point in going any further. I'm talking about a level of play you obvoiusly have not reached.i thought you'd say that. best of luck with the "old hat".
p.s. get some of your "top" gamers in the mid-season league. probably got some excuse for that one too
[ September 29, 2004, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]
LOL... This is like my 15 year olds telling me I'm wrong. No point in going any further. I'm talking about a level of play you obvoiusly have not reached.i thought you'd say that. best of luck with the "old hat".
p.s. get some of your "top" gamers in the mid-season league. probably got some excuse for that one too
[ September 29, 2004, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]
Is my "weekend warrior" prep better than your prep?
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ultimatefs
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Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by JerseyPaul:
Let's be nice but for the record:
Based on my observations there is a lot of mutual respect between Tom/Greg and Gordan. Gordan has been supportive from the beginning. Their relationship is strong enough that comments can be punctuated with sarcasm for emphasis and it won't be taken personally (by either party).
The argument as to the value or lack of value of draft position is spurious since if it doesn't matter, then nobody should care how it is assigned.
The real issue is a business issue. In this early stage of the development of the industry, industry pioneers want the product simple to understand and close to the experience of the target customer. They are looking for 100% or 200% growth rates over the next few years.
We, the experienced players have a somewhat different agenda. We want to minimize luck by maximizing control over every decision.
The two objectives may be at odds (no pun) with each other, at least for the next year or two.
I think our trying out ideas in limited leagues with real prizes is a great way to accelerate the evolution of the product. Very good post...
I will add that I think Greg/Tom/KP are smart enough, especially Greg with his industry history, is that "simpler" is better. And not just the next few years, but for the long run. The history of this industry, and not just my business, proves that. I've never seen a very complex fantasy game, big or small company run, ever succeed. I do see a ZILLION pay Challenge games. Enough said.
All that said, this idea isn't that complex if done right. Test league is certainly the way to go.
Let's be nice but for the record:
Based on my observations there is a lot of mutual respect between Tom/Greg and Gordan. Gordan has been supportive from the beginning. Their relationship is strong enough that comments can be punctuated with sarcasm for emphasis and it won't be taken personally (by either party).
The argument as to the value or lack of value of draft position is spurious since if it doesn't matter, then nobody should care how it is assigned.
The real issue is a business issue. In this early stage of the development of the industry, industry pioneers want the product simple to understand and close to the experience of the target customer. They are looking for 100% or 200% growth rates over the next few years.
We, the experienced players have a somewhat different agenda. We want to minimize luck by maximizing control over every decision.
The two objectives may be at odds (no pun) with each other, at least for the next year or two.
I think our trying out ideas in limited leagues with real prizes is a great way to accelerate the evolution of the product. Very good post...
I will add that I think Greg/Tom/KP are smart enough, especially Greg with his industry history, is that "simpler" is better. And not just the next few years, but for the long run. The history of this industry, and not just my business, proves that. I've never seen a very complex fantasy game, big or small company run, ever succeed. I do see a ZILLION pay Challenge games. Enough said.
All that said, this idea isn't that complex if done right. Test league is certainly the way to go.
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.
Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by UFS:
quote:Originally posted by Dyv:
I know the politically correct answer is that your gamers are fantastic and brilliant and they all rock the world, but the reality is you might have 20-30-100 people playing on your system who are (can I say this?) 'at our level' of addiction to fantasy sports. Is it true that if your top 20 played each other one would always win? I think the NFFC has brough some kooks out of the woodwork, but also a significant amount of 'good' gamers. Throw your top 20 into the NFFC next year and tell me if they dominate or not? I've never found a gamer I couldn't beat... but I've found some I can't lose to because they are so ridiculously clueless.
Dyv Our level of addiction? Most of mine have been in the same leagues since 1990.
Is it true? What kind of silly question is that?
I don't have 20X$1250 to "throw" my guys in. I can certainly invite them. I sent very late notice this year to them.
The Top 20 would easily compete at the same level as the top 20 here. As would the bottom 20.
You lost to a certain gamer twice last week. LOL.
But I've found.... that's a given and never will go away.
Hope you're not in search of some holy grail you'll never find. [/QUOTE]Wasn't a challenge - I can lose any week anytime...
Just trying to get your feel for the level of the 'average nffc' owner vs. the 'top 20 ufs gamer'
I have no doubt you have some serious and committed gamers on your site
Dave
quote:Originally posted by Dyv:
I know the politically correct answer is that your gamers are fantastic and brilliant and they all rock the world, but the reality is you might have 20-30-100 people playing on your system who are (can I say this?) 'at our level' of addiction to fantasy sports. Is it true that if your top 20 played each other one would always win? I think the NFFC has brough some kooks out of the woodwork, but also a significant amount of 'good' gamers. Throw your top 20 into the NFFC next year and tell me if they dominate or not? I've never found a gamer I couldn't beat... but I've found some I can't lose to because they are so ridiculously clueless.
Dyv Our level of addiction? Most of mine have been in the same leagues since 1990.
Is it true? What kind of silly question is that?
I don't have 20X$1250 to "throw" my guys in. I can certainly invite them. I sent very late notice this year to them.
The Top 20 would easily compete at the same level as the top 20 here. As would the bottom 20.
You lost to a certain gamer twice last week. LOL.
But I've found.... that's a given and never will go away.
Hope you're not in search of some holy grail you'll never find. [/QUOTE]Wasn't a challenge - I can lose any week anytime...
Just trying to get your feel for the level of the 'average nffc' owner vs. the 'top 20 ufs gamer'
I have no doubt you have some serious and committed gamers on your site
Dave
The Wonderful thing about Dyv's is I'm the only one!
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Gordon Gekko
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Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by UFS:
I will add that I think Greg/Tom/KP are smart enough, especially Greg with his industry history, is that "simpler" is better. And not just the next few years, but for the long run. The history of this industry, and not just my business, proves that. I've never seen a very complex fantasy game, big or small company run, ever succeed. i agree with your pt in general terms, and i don't mean to sound like a teenager here..."complex" is very subjective word. funny, but i have a feeling that a $1000 blind bidding FA process would have been viewed as "complex" to many of the fantasy football gamers back in the early-mid 1990's. now, it's common place.
[ September 29, 2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]
I will add that I think Greg/Tom/KP are smart enough, especially Greg with his industry history, is that "simpler" is better. And not just the next few years, but for the long run. The history of this industry, and not just my business, proves that. I've never seen a very complex fantasy game, big or small company run, ever succeed. i agree with your pt in general terms, and i don't mean to sound like a teenager here..."complex" is very subjective word. funny, but i have a feeling that a $1000 blind bidding FA process would have been viewed as "complex" to many of the fantasy football gamers back in the early-mid 1990's. now, it's common place.
[ September 29, 2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]
Is my "weekend warrior" prep better than your prep?
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ultimatefs
- Posts: 2393
- Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:00 pm
Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by Dyv:
Wasn't a challenge - I can lose any week anytime...
Just trying to get your feel for the level of the 'average nffc' owner vs. the 'top 20 ufs gamer'
I have no doubt you have some serious and committed gamers on your site
Dave [/QB][/quote]
Just bustin' ya on the two W's.
"average nffc" owner? My top 20 would kill them.
Top 20 NFFC owner? They would compete very evenly IMO.
I would put these levels on WCOFF and NFFC..
Top 15-20% - Extemely good owner. Doesn't miss a thing. Ever.
Next 15-20% - Very good player, experienced, but has a life and can't get every ounce of info. These owners win leagues often, but not as much as above.
Next 30-40% - Average players. They win occasionally, usually because they avoid injuries. Lack experience, but just a matter of time.
Bottom 10-20% - Always clueless like you said before. Make bad picks no matter where they draft. Make bad FA picks. Make horrible trades that make other owners irate.
What's your take on this Dave?
Wasn't a challenge - I can lose any week anytime...
Just trying to get your feel for the level of the 'average nffc' owner vs. the 'top 20 ufs gamer'
I have no doubt you have some serious and committed gamers on your site
Dave [/QB][/quote]
Just bustin' ya on the two W's.
"average nffc" owner? My top 20 would kill them.
Top 20 NFFC owner? They would compete very evenly IMO.
I would put these levels on WCOFF and NFFC..
Top 15-20% - Extemely good owner. Doesn't miss a thing. Ever.
Next 15-20% - Very good player, experienced, but has a life and can't get every ounce of info. These owners win leagues often, but not as much as above.
Next 30-40% - Average players. They win occasionally, usually because they avoid injuries. Lack experience, but just a matter of time.
Bottom 10-20% - Always clueless like you said before. Make bad picks no matter where they draft. Make bad FA picks. Make horrible trades that make other owners irate.
What's your take on this Dave?
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.
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ultimatefs
- Posts: 2393
- Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:00 pm
Having input in draft slot selection
Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:
quote:Originally posted by UFS:
I will add that I think Greg/Tom/KP are smart enough, especially Greg with his industry history, is that "simpler" is better. And not just the next few years, but for the long run. The history of this industry, and not just my business, proves that. I've never seen a very complex fantasy game, big or small company run, ever succeed. i agree with your pt in general terms, and i don't mean to sound like a teenager here..."complex" is very subjective word. funny, but i have a feeling that a $1000 blind bidding FA process would have been viewed as "complex" to many of the fantasy football gamers back in the early-mid 1990's. now, it's common place. [/QUOTE]Please read the entire post and not be in such a hurry to reply. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by UFS:
I will add that I think Greg/Tom/KP are smart enough, especially Greg with his industry history, is that "simpler" is better. And not just the next few years, but for the long run. The history of this industry, and not just my business, proves that. I've never seen a very complex fantasy game, big or small company run, ever succeed. i agree with your pt in general terms, and i don't mean to sound like a teenager here..."complex" is very subjective word. funny, but i have a feeling that a $1000 blind bidding FA process would have been viewed as "complex" to many of the fantasy football gamers back in the early-mid 1990's. now, it's common place. [/QUOTE]Please read the entire post and not be in such a hurry to reply. Thanks.
Jules is a Dirt bag and makes my luck.