WERE REGULAR SATELLITE LEAGUES CUT?

[TamuScarecrow]

I think you're right, it's time for a weekly Live Chat so folks can ask away. If Tom and I can't answer any hot question you have, we'll get Ryan to jump in and provide the answers you need. No problem.Fair enough, Greg. My step-dad did the same thing for the first handful of years. He left it up to my mom to tell me how good he was and to convince me I was still being spoiled.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by Tamuscarecrow:
quote:I think you're right, it's time for a weekly Live Chat so folks can ask away. If Tom and I can't answer any hot question you have, we'll get Ryan to jump in and provide the answers you need. No problem.Fair enough, Greg. My step-dad did the same thing for the first handful of years. He left it up to my mom to tell me how good he was and to convince me I was still being spoiled. [/QUOTE]Hah, that's a good one. I'm not sure I'll ever convince you folks that Ryan or anyone else here is doing all they can to make this work out for us. Especially not with some folks continually going on other boards and just ripping into Fanball. Of course he wants this to be as successful as can be. But yeah, some things may have to be on the back burner this year while we try to make other things successful. Or we'll get it all done in time and folks will be disappointed that we weren't as evil as they predicted. Only time will tell.

All I can tell you is we're working on the draft software and back-end engine now and after that's done we can answer some of these questions about the side games. Fair enough?

[Coltsfan]

Greg,

I'm guessing that most of us here really don't have a problem with Fanball. You have alluded to that in many posts here and I just don't hear it. Other boards may take an occassional shot at fanball but honestly if Ryan exaggerated Fanballs ownership in the FFOC then it might be somewhat warranted. He might have brought a bit of it on himself.

But if there is a single big reason why people might feel like fanball doesn't care is when all of the stuff came down about the ffoc and Ryan's response to us (at least initially) was that he probably wasn't ever going to post here - thus just ignoring us. INHO, that is where that feeling comes from. I don't think that people are taking shot at you or Tom (at least not any more than normal ) so in any event I hope I don't come across that way.

I have been through 4 mergers in business and my personal feeling is that you throw 150% of what you need at the merger to make sure you not only don't miss a beat but you come out of it offering more than before. The last thing you want is customers experiencing less than normal service due to the merger. That could be unavoidable in this situation, I have no way of knowing myself, but I hope for both you and Tom that it all works out soon.

I do want to thank both of you for throwing yoursevles back into the boards here and keeping them moving. I look forward to escaping reality and logging in here for a few minutes everyday. If Ryan can stop by every once in a while it would probably do wonders for pr. I really don't think it would take that much effort and it would go a long ways.


Wayne

[mikeybok]

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by Bullgod:
Greg,

A quick question regarding the Fanball offerings. Will they be doing what they did with snapdraft? I played that for a couple months. I won more games than I lost. I paid in $100 total plus my "free sample" from the NFFC and my account was up to around $700 at the end of the calendar year. BOOM in the mail I receive a W-9 stating I had won over $3,000!!!! HUH? WHAT? Seriously?
Sorry to vent but that really frosted my A$$!

So my question is, is Fanball going to w-9 you if you win multiple leagues and your "total prize" money is over $600? Because honestly that would determine if I'm going to play in any of thesse offerings.

And shame on me for not reading the fine print on Snapdraft. Pat, anything you win from those season-long games will be prize money just like you'd have won in the NFFC, so anything over $600 would receive a 1099.

I think what you're saying is that if you won in Snap Draft and then lost some in Snap Draft they kept the total of winnings and didn't subtract the entry fees and you got taxed on it all, correct? Or did they do the difference between winnings and entry fees? Either way you should have been able to subtract your entry fees as an expense, correct?

Sorry, I'm not as familiar with Snap Draft but I'll ask Hugh to come on here to explain. Good question and I'll see if someone more intelligent than me can answer this. [/QUOTE]I am not a tax accountant. My understanding is your tax choices are gambling or a business if you want to net losses. Gambling can take losses against winnings but is basically ruled out because it's probably illegal if it was considered gambling (it's considered a contest of skill). That basically leaves business income.

Assuming you meet all the business criteria, get ready to pay FUTA, SUTA, FICA (both employer and employee parts) and medicare tax on your profit. It's probably your best option here (because of your big net amount), Maybe Fanball can get you a list of all the contests and amounts you entered to save you time putting together expenses. If it is considered a business, other business expenses spent to win contests can also be considered to net against the W-9.

I also remember there was a 600 or 900 dollar min on a personal business that would be exempt from payroll taxes. If you are under that ... life will be easier.

Good Luck. I Hope that helps.

[Tom Kessenich]

Wayne, I think there is a level of acrimony that's being delivered at Fanball that is based on rumor, innuendo and falsehoods. Fanball's been attacked. Ryan's been attacked. Greg's been attacked. I've been attacked. I've even been called a liar by some despite the fact such an allegation was wildly untrue. It's unfortunate that some people choose to behave this way and it's bizarre that it seems to have spread like wildfire in some areas but that's the way it seems to be at the present time. There isn't anything Greg or I can do when people decide they are going to ignore the truth and believe whatever fits their specific point of view.

As you well know, neither Greg nor I shy away from legitimate questions about our events. It's all the nonsense and BS that's running rampant right now that we've grown weary of. Sadly, there's no end in sight to it. In any event, I agree with Greg that Scott's post did a great job of summarizing many key issues. It's a crazy time in the industry and all we can do is offer the best event and the best game possible. We believe we're doing that.

Change is never easy but I still believe the things that made the NFFC (and NFBC) great remain in place. Hopefully, you guys also believe that and if we have to work harder to prove that to you, I don't have a problem with that.

[BONGIZMO]

Thanks Greg, I have my moments

I for one think there is room for all three contests although that is taking out further economic deterioration and/or government intervention and let's not even think about the horror of no NFL in 2011.

I have never been in the camp that feels it's a death knell for any of the three contests with their current challenges/issues but I do think none of the big three has quite figured out how to seperate from the others.

WCOFF was the innovator and thus created the scale and event feel but can't get out it's own way service wise and just stays relatively static numbers wise. They keep gaining new folks because they are the biggest but they have yet to figure how to keep long time people from wandering away.

The NFFC comes in and carves out a niche to compete based on service and a 14 team concept. In an effort to listen to it's base and attract the hard core gamer, it kept it's potential numbers small. Now you go more main stream and risk rubbing your loyal core the wrong way which may still keep your numbers small and thus not being able to take advantage of WCOFF's service issues.

Finally the FFPC comes in and looks like they have it all figured out by taking the 'event' element of WCOFF and the NFFC's superior service and putting it all together. Just as they have the perfect scenario with WCOFF's continued service issues and NFFC's change which created a later start, they drop the ball by getting in some nasty MB stuff that comes across as them slamming the other contests which creates an image issue imo.

It's wild because all three of you have this incredible chance imo to grab marketshare but noone has yet to be able to get it done. I don't need to say that this is a critical year for all the reasons you have addressed as an industry, but it's an incredible opportunity for one of you three to really make a move sharewise.

Maybe the winner will become a business case study to be paraded for years to come in the Halls of Wharton...

[kjduke]

Originally posted by Ugly Yellow Tomatoes:
I am not a tax accountant. My understanding is your tax choices are gambling or a business if you want to net losses. Gambling can take losses against winnings but is basically ruled out because it's probably illegal if it was considered gambling (it's considered a contest of skill). That basically leaves business income.

Assuming you meet all the business criteria, get ready to pay FUTA, SUTA, FICA (both employer and employee parts) and medicare tax on your profit. It's probably your best option here (because of your big net amount), Maybe Fanball can get you a list of all the contests and amounts you entered to save you time putting together expenses. If it is considered a business, other business expenses spent to win contests can also be considered to net against the W-9.

I also remember there was a 600 or 900 dollar min on a personal business that would be exempt from payroll taxes. If you are under that ... life will be easier.

Good Luck. I Hope that helps. As I've interpreted, fantasy winnings can be classified as either business income or hobby income. I don't believe payroll tax, fica, etc are an issue unless you have actual employees and payroll. Business income allows for better deductions, but there are certain criteria to be met. Hobby income allows for deductions, but they're limited in certain circumstances.

Greg, you want to grow the fantasy sports business? This would be a great topic for the FSTA or fanball - most players aren't clear on tax issues and having favorable tax treatment means more incentive to play. How about having one of the LBTYA tax accountants dig into the issue and provide players with guidelines for cost-effective tax treatment - media companies have always been good at not paying taxes!

[Sandman62]

That sounds like a GREAT idea KJ! I won $7800 last year, but was paid this year. So my $2000 investment last year can't be used to writeoff against profit in a subsequent year (I think).

But I'm upping the ante this year to probably around $3500 and I'd like to write that off at least against the hundreds of thousands I'll win this year or at least against the $7800 I was already paid.

Tax accountants, please step forward! Maybe a new thread titled "How to offset winnings against expenses come tax time" or something similar?

Thanks.

[ June 24, 2010, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]

[Greg Ambrosius]

Scott, spot on again. I don't have all the answers but I think the following is true:

** In all areas of the industry, there's room for 3 or more games/services/products, including this space. But to have more competitors you need to grow that area of the market, not just try to take your competitors' customers away. I think the live events have grown through the years, but not enough to be profitable for three different companies. That's just the facts and that's why we all need to bring in new customers to this area of the market or more change will happen soon.

** Negativity breeds negativity. I remember last year when folks said the NFFC boards were poisoned, pardon the pun. Well, I'll take our boards now over some others for sure. Tom and I are trying our best to lead the football talk, we're posting magazine draft results, we're being honest about our back-end situation, we're trying to get our own mock draft lobby live and I think even you folks have been great keeping the good football talk going. I don't want any of the rest and I'm glad we have the members we have here now. I'll play with this team and keep adding to it.

** The leaders of each contest are key. Like it or not, we get the credit or the blame for what happens by season's end and that goes for everyone in this space. Either you trust us (the leaders and their parent companies) or you don't. Nobody should invest their dollars in any of these games if they have any doubt on being paid, on enjoying the draft experience, on trusting the software, or on trusting the tough decisions that have to be made by the leaders of these contests. We all run things differently (hey, if you accidentally cut the wrong Adrian Peterson how will each contest deal with that?) and you folks should decide if you want to play in one, two or all three of these contests. But as you stated, the consumer IS KING and you'll decide our fates.

** Again, grow your customer base. I know for a fact that not all of our customers from last year are returning this year. Some can't do it economically and others are choosing not to because of us. I get it. But the key is that we at least now have a new fan base of hundreds of thousands of fantasy players to market to and that led to hundreds of new players in baseball and I trust it will lead to hundreds of new players in football. And if that means we have fewer satellite leagues but more overall players, it's the choice you folks will make for us.

If we all could do it we'd:

Pay the highest grand prize and SELL OUT every contest.

Have many different contests that ALL SELL OUT.

Host these live events at the best venues possible at the lowest costs in as many cities as possible, while still paying the highest percentage payouts.

Get on satellite radio, have your own dedicated magazines, have those magazines on iPads, get on TV, make your players the stars, have iPhone apps. Oh, and all while making money in all of those new avenues.

Retain every customer and double with new customers each year, while providing personal customer service that is unmatched in this field.

Growing revenues, keeping costs down and yet paying out the highest prize percentages. It's easier said than done and I'm not sure anyone can do all of that. That's why some are doing one of those and the others another and the other one of them. Make sense?

[Greg Ambrosius]

Good ideas KJ. I said the FSTA should have talked about this at their last conference since it's already obvious that some games are rolling over winnings without reporting those and other contests aren't touching that area. It's already an uneven playing field and certainly an area someone with the government will look into at some point.

I'll see if I can get our CFO to jump in on this subject. Heck, maybe even get him for a live chat. That would be fun. This certainly isn't my area of expertise and in fact I think the standard line should be "contact your local accountant" for more details. But if we can help we'll get someone on the boards to answer questions.

Mike, I don't believe your first statement is true. Those expenses still can be used for last year's winnings.