Week 2 Thoughts & Observations

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:23 am

Glenn, with all due respect we all know your point here. You don't need to repeat it with every reply. Let others join in the discussion. Thanks.

boutrous11 · Post by **boutrous11** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:29 am

I disagree with the notion that Welker is a great talent. Brady makes him what he is.
The talent level over the span of both of their careers is greatly tipped on the Manning side, imo.

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:40 am

Thoughts on last night's game:

Wow, that was ugly.

The Giants won but I wasn't very impressed with them. Not having their Top 2 WRs fully healthy didn't help matters but that team looks like a mess.

Bradford made plays but no Steven Jackson was a huge blow for the Rams. Based on last night's game it appears Mike Sims-Walker is the WR to own in St. Louis but I wouldn't be surprised if that's a week-to-week situation as long as Amendola is out. The good news for the Rams is they play in the worst division in football so an 0-2 record doesn't count them out of anything.

matthickok · Post by **matthickok** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:31 am

Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
Good post Tom Terrific although I'd say this season's Colts not only are an example of management not preparing adequately for the possibility of Manning being hurt but also clear proof of how valuable he is. I'd also say the 49ers' continuing their dynasty after Montana retired is a direct reflection of their ability to go from one HOF QB to another. The Packers are looking at something similar with their transition from Favre to Rodgers.

As far as what Brady did last season, he did lose Moss but he still had Welker (a terrific wide receiver), a rejuvenated Branch (no slouch by any stretch) and two highly-gifted tight ends in Hernandez and Gronkowski. That's my primary disagreement here - the idea that Brady has lacked talent to work with over the years. Maybe in the early championship days with Patten and Givens and the like but I don't think that's been the case since Moss and Welker arrived and it's definitely not the case now. The Patriots have a wealth of talent in the passing game and Brady is taking full advantage. TK, no one is saying the Patriots receivers aren't talented, but it reads like you're discounting just how much better Brady makes them. To end any doubt, let's look at the numbers:

Performance post-Brady

David Givens
2005 with NE- 59-738-2 age 25
2006 with TEN- 8-104-0 age 26

David Patten
2004 with NE- 44-800-7 age 30
2005 with WAS- 22-217-0 age 31

Deion Branch
2005 with NE- 78-998-5 age 26
2006 with Sea- 53-725-4 age 27

We cannot assume the drop offs are a result of learning a new system or it taking time to form chemistry with a new QB because:

Wes Welker
2006 with Mia- 67-687-1 age 25
2007 with NE- 112-1175-8 age 26

Randy Moss
2006 with Oak- 42-553-3 age 29
2007 with NE- 98-1493-23 age 30
The 23 TDs is the all-time record for WR. What a difference a new QB makes.

and the ultimate comparison because he's a member of both sides...

Deion Branch
2009 with Sea- 45-437-2 age 30
2010 with NE- 61-818-6 age 31
Welcome back, err, you're welcome!

In every receiver's case, the production is nearly twice as good or better playing with Brady, regardless of age. Even when Moss fell off a cliff last season:

4G with NE- 9-139-3
12G with MIN and TEN- 19-254-2
Still more than twice as good with Brady, and MIN had a pretty decent HOF QB of their own slinging the ball...

Finally, while I'll readily admit the tight ends are very good, you're completely overlooking the fact that both were rookies last year! Rookies almost ALWAYS struggle in their first season, and neither of these guys was a sure thing first round pick.

Rob Gronkowski
2009- 20 year old college student who did not play football while recovering from back surgery
2010 with NE- 42-546-10
More impressively, he did it with another tight end playing consistently on the same roster!

Aaron Hernandez
2009 with FLorida in NCAA 68-850-5
2010 with NE- 45-563-6

Finally, a player who had better numbers before Brady (as a college junior, albeit with less touchdowns!)

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:36 am

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:36 am

Hey Tom, I'm not discounting the Brady factor at all. No question he makes his WRs better. All great QBs do. Manning has done it too. I just believe the Pats have had some very good and sometimes great weapons in the passing game for Brady to utilize. Moss is one of the greatest WR talents to ever play the game. Welker's one of the best WRs in the game in my opinion. His two TEs now are arguably among the most talented players at the position.

I think the Patriots are loaded in the passing game. Does Brady make it all work? Absolutely. He's a future Hall of Famer as I've said all along. I'm certainly not discounting his influence. I simply don't agree he's made chicken salad out of chicken s**t.

Rog · Post by **Rog** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:56 am

The reason the not soon talented wr's do better with brady should be based on the constant mismatches the coaching staff creates.the patriots coaching staff could make almost any qb a superstar .I am a steelers fan but would never put bradshaw info the same class,but everybody wants to bring up championships .

Tom Kessenich · Post by **Tom Kessenich** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:02 am

The Patriots won 11 games without Brady in 2008. That's pretty strong evidence there's more going on there than just Brady because I don't think Matt Cassel is a great QB by any stretch. Again, that's not meant as a knock on Brady because he's obviously a superstar. It just reinforces the point that their high-powered offense isn't just Tom Brady and a bunch of dregs he turns into stars.

Here's a question I'll pose - put Cassel on the Colts this season instead of Collins. How many games do you think Indy would win? Could they go 11-5 like the Patriots did with Cassel in 2008? Keep in mind Cassel is also much more experienced now than he was when he replaced Brady.

[ September 20, 2011, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]