WCOFF bankruptcy

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Shrink Attack
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Shrink Attack » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:58 pm

Originally posted by Quahogs:
quote:Originally posted by Raiders:
quote:Originally posted by DoubleG:
looks like there are over 450 creditors...

I'm glad to say I did not make this rankings. :D
[/QUOTE]No surprise there. You had to have won something.
[/QUOTE]That one made me laugh.
"Deserve" ain't got nothin' to do with it
---Clint Eastwood in The Unforgiven

Greg Ambrosius
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:57 pm

Originally posted by da bears:
WCOFF will be the focus of ESPN outside- the- lines show on Dec. 18.

http://www.fantasyplayersassociation.co ... -re-wcoff/ You can't blame ESPN for doing this story, but they must think it's a doozy if they are putting it on Sunday morning. I sure hope they don't sensationalize the events that took place and make the entire industry look bad, but we deserve whatever we get. This is a black eye for our entire industry.

Unfortunately, the basis of the story is simple American economics: A bad business plan perpetrated by bad businessmen who overestimated their investment. They paid too much for a business with a narrow profit margin and then convinced investors that they could double, triple, quadruple and even get to 10x profit in just a few years. Their projections were unrealistic and instead of turning profits they overshot on their guaranteed prize pools right from the start and went in the red on a business that had turned profits from its second year until the year after the sale. It's Bad Business 101, not Bad Fantasy Sports Industry 101.

Unfortunately, everyone played a role in this. Players who believed the grand prizes would keep being paid even when the math on the WCOFB was completely out of whack. Players who allowed WCOFF to roll their money over, thus creating a cash flow that was manageable even when losses were piling up. Industry execs, who still gave them awards and catered to them even though they knew red ink was flowing. And it's not as if we hadn't all seen this play before: In the past five years the same scenario played out with Fantasy Jungle, AFFL and Rapid Draft. Why was WCOFF so different? Because people once trusted Lenny and Emil?

I could go on and on about how their vision of marrying poker and fantasy sports was a bad idea, how spending for exposure on Versus was time and money misspent, how including Randy Moss and VUFantasy was a misdirection, how rolling over prize money hid real facts about how much available money they really had, how their vision for this space was never realistic, how entering the baseball market with a Dream Job offer was a nightmare idea, and on and on. But I won't. ;)

I think this is Very Bad Business 101, not a reflection of the growing fantasy sports industry. We're all paying for this bad business plan and now we'll see how the national media treats us. I hope not as bad as I'm expecting.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius

Cocktails and Dreams
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Cocktails and Dreams » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:39 pm

Originally posted by Raiders:
quote:Originally posted by Quahogs:
quote:Originally posted by Raiders:
quote:Originally posted by DoubleG:
looks like there are over 450 creditors...

I'm glad to say I did not make this rankings. :D
[/QUOTE]No surprise there. You had to have won something.
[/QUOTE]So the surprise is there is a list at all, you need to get paid to win, correct?
[/QUOTE]No surprise you are still one of the biggest douchebags ever assembled either. Showing your colors yet again.

Money
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Money » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:45 pm

Anyone making light of this situation needs re-examine their thought process. This sucks and will further deteriorate the high stakes arena. Hell I'm afraid to watch the ESPN special as it might scare me away and I know the NFFC/NFBC is way above board.

I guess you never say never in this world.
Joe

Cocktails and Dreams
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Cocktails and Dreams » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:59 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
quote:Originally posted by da bears:
WCOFF will be the focus of ESPN outside- the- lines show on Dec. 18.

http://www.fantasyplayersassociation.co ... -re-wcoff/ You can't blame ESPN for doing this story, but they must think it's a doozy if they are putting it on Sunday morning. I sure hope they don't sensationalize the events that took place and make the entire industry look bad, but we deserve whatever we get. This is a black eye for our entire industry.

Unfortunately, the basis of the story is simple American economics: A bad business plan perpetrated by bad businessmen who overestimated their investment. They paid too much for a business with a narrow profit margin and then convinced investors that they could double, triple, quadruple and even get to 10x profit in just a few years. Their projections were unrealistic and instead of turning profits they overshot on their guaranteed prize pools right from the start and went in the red on a business that had turned profits from its second year until the year after the sale. It's Bad Business 101, not Bad Fantasy Sports Industry 101.

Unfortunately, everyone played a role in this. Players who believed the grand prizes would keep being paid even when the math on the WCOFB was completely out of whack. Players who allowed WCOFF to roll their money over, thus creating a cash flow that was manageable even when losses were piling up. Industry execs, who still gave them awards and catered to them even though they knew red ink was flowing. And it's not as if we hadn't all seen this play before: In the past five years the same scenario played out with Fantasy Jungle, AFFL and Rapid Draft. Why was WCOFF so different? Because people once trusted Lenny and Emil?

I could go on and on about how their vision of marrying poker and fantasy sports was a bad idea, how spending for exposure on Versus was time and money misspent, how including Randy Moss and VUFantasy was a misdirection, how rolling over prize money hid real facts about how much available money they really had, how their vision for this space was never realistic, how entering the baseball market with a Dream Job offer was a nightmare idea, and on and on. But I won't. ;)

I think this is Very Bad Business 101, not a reflection of the growing fantasy sports industry. We're all paying for this bad business plan and now we'll see how the national media treats us. I hope not as bad as I'm expecting.
[/QUOTE]I don't think anyone involved needs to be told that we contributed to our own demise. I know I sure as hell don't. After paying them almost 50k in football entry fees and being owed over a quarter million dollars by them, I don't need to be told I was responsible for my own demise. They flat out lied to me. When questioned they said they were growing their brand and had deep pockets to see the baseball losses to grow their brand. They were very much deceptive. And I hope like hell they pay one way or another for their deception. That doesn't mean I need an "I told you so" here though. We get it. You have an honest business model and they didn't. We already know that though. Those of us that got completely screwed, while others got paid in full for no logical reason, don't need to hear that we are responsible for getting screwed. We kind of already feel that way, even though we shouldn't have to. In my case to the tune of over a quarter million dollars. As for the story, it isn't about the NFFC. It is about people getting screwed by the WCOFF.

[ December 09, 2011, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Cocktails and Dreams ]

Greg Ambrosius
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:51 pm

It's definitely about the players Chad. Players who are hard-working Americans that paid honest money to play a legal game of skill and expected their winnings in due time. Nobody is pointing a finger at the players. As you said, each time anyone asked for answers there was a person picking up the phone and saying what folks wanted to hear. This wasn't a scam, this was just bad business that led to losses that couldn't be overcome and lies that sounded good. Players got the run-around for months and months and months. Heck, the event wasn't cancelled until two days before Draft Day, when some folks were already in Las Vegas wondering where the WCOFF draft room was. I got calls on Thursday from players in Las Vegas who were shocked to hear that the WCOFF had been cancelled. They had no idea this was coming to an end.

Honesty could have saved a lot of people a lot of money and a lot of grief. Again, in my eyes this is not a story about an industry gone wild, contests being set up as scams or Ponzi schemes, or an industry that needs immediate government regulation. This is a story about a bad investment based on unrealistic expectations of the market. The WCOFF should have been one of the industry's shining stars, but bad business decisions and practices has led to hundreds of people being hurt financially in what is easily the biggest default our industry has ever seen. It's a crying shame and nobody knows that more than you and Kevin Kirves.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
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bald is beautiful
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by bald is beautiful » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:03 am

Originally posted by Raiders:
quote:Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:
quote:Originally posted by Raiders:
quote:Originally posted by Quahogs:
quote:Originally posted by Raiders:
quote:Originally posted by DoubleG:
looks like there are over 450 creditors...

I'm glad to say I did not make this rankings. :D
[/QUOTE]No surprise there. You had to have won something.
[/QUOTE]So the surprise is there is a list at all, you need to get paid to win, correct?
[/QUOTE]No surprise you are still one of the biggest douchebags ever assembled either. Showing your colors yet again.
[/QUOTE]Chad you enter a Contest that has a 100 total players because your odds are good at winning the Overall Contest, well you were correct, you won. But getting paid is the part that I think was the more important part, that never looked like it was going to happen and it didn't.

Business 101: Taken more money in and paying out less.
[/QUOTE]Thanks for the business lesson, Professor.

I thought you quit fantasy football. Yet, you still show up on message boards to make people feel like crap and say 'Look how smart I think I am, I told you so". I can't fathom what you think you are accomplishing.

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Tom Kessenich
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Tom Kessenich » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:11 am

Agreed. John, if you have something constructive to add to the conversation please do so. But you've already come here once with suspect means and sent a thread off kilter. It isn't necessary for you to do that again. There's no reason I can think of for anyone to gloat about how happy they are they aren't one of the hundreds of people who placed their trust in WCOFF and were lied to manipulated and ultimately s*****d over. This isn't a laughing matter. This is not a joke. This is not something for you to feel good about.

This is the worst thing that has happened to the fantasy industry. What needs to happen now is retribution for those who have been done wrong and for those who claim to police the industry or are advocates of it and those of us who play in it and work in it to show that what happened with WCOFF isn't representative of the industry as a whole and there are good, honest and reputable places for people to play in the high-stakes arena.

[ December 09, 2011, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Tom Kessenich ]
Tom Kessenich
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Glenneration X
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Glenneration X » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:20 am

I have to agree with Chad here.

Though far from unexpected, the actual notice that the WCOFF had filed was a harsh reality to absorb. With that filing, whatever very very slim hopes remained that the WCOFF intended to and would still try to make good on their promises and responsibilities to me and others were permanantly vanquished. This leaves legal recourse the only option remaining for those of us who still hope to be compensated what is due us. For me personally, that is slightly more than $67,000.00. Having just taken an additional financial hit because of this situation by paying a legal retainer for counsel and hoping that it's not just throwing good money after bad, I am personally more than a little sensitive to criticism that I should have known better.

We should tread carefully here. To blame the victims for being victimized are dangerous waters to wade through. Were there red flags? In hindsight, certainly. Even in foresight, there were surely hints. However, there was a history of 8 years of every dime owed being paid by the WCOFF. Personally they paid me everything I won for both my football and baseball prize winnings my first two years with the contest from 2009-2010 outside of what I reinvested in their 2011 contests. Their history of payments preceeded that of even the NFFC, another contest that uses its history as evidence that our money is safe with them. There also was the backing of the "deep pockets" of the financial partners of the WCOFF that could absorb any losses to grow a business (laughably both these partners as well as Dustin are included on the list of creditors in this filing). Not all business models or business plans are the same. It is not uncommon in any business to absorb upfront financial losses for future growth. In fact, I would be surprised if the NFBC didn't incur losses its first year that were simply absorbed by its financial backer, Krause Publishing. What one can't foresee is when the financial backing that make losses absorbable and part of a workable business plan makes a decision to withdraw its support without living up to its obligations already made. That's apparantly what's happened here.

There have been red flags all over this industry. Let's not forget that there were red flags not too long ago with Fanball as well. The FFOC allegations, the software issues that created contest credibility issues, the added costs to both contest and customer, the slower payouts, and a polarizing figure in charge like Dustin in Ryan Houston that did little to create trust in the contest for the customer. Let's also not forget that they had strong financial backing in Liberty Media as well, who also decided to pull the plug. It would be unwise not to remember that there were moments there when we all were unsure how it would play out. If not for the goodwill of Liberty Media, when they closed up Fanball's shop they could have gone the route of the WCOFF without making payments as well. We can thank them for not choosing that direction, but if they had we'd have been in the same position as we are now with the WCOFF with little if any recourse.

Many now, both operators and players, speak of red flags and not heeding the words of caution. I pointed out some flags that even applied to the most trusted of our contests. If we are to fear the red flags in a specific contest, why not the red flags in the industry in general. Each year of the past five, another once trusted contest has gone under or defaulted. AFFL I, Fantasy Jungle, AFFL II, FFOC, Fanball, RapidDraft, the WCOFF. If I am to heed the words of caution, why not those of my friends & family, my work colleagues, my wife, who know my story and don't look at it as a condemnation of a specific contest, but of the High Stakes industry in general. If I were to heed the concerns of my wife after what's happened, I wouldn't invest another dime in these contests.

These contests and this industry is one without oversight. There really is no protection for the player. Even the FFPC's promotion of escrow provides little in the form of true protection for the player. Escrow is not something that can't be circumvented in the way it applies for these contests. We play the contests we play because of the trust we feel for the people that run those contests. When I first joined the NFBC in 2009, I really had no reason to be certain all would be paid when the time came. I did my research, had a conversation with Greg, and decided to put my trust in him. I continue to play his contests because I've decided to continue to put my trust him and Tom. I play the FFPC because I decided to put my trust in Alex and Dave. I played the WCOFF because I decided to put my trust in those that ran that contest. They betrayed that trust. However, that was all I had to believe that my investment was safe. That is all we really have. We are men that need to put our trust in other men in order to play these types of contests.

I've yet to invest one cent into any 2012 contests. If I do, it will be because I've decided to continue to trust certain people that run certain contests will do the right thing. Don't say that trust isn't enough Greg, because there's nothing else these contests can provide that hasn't been provided in the past by contests that turned out not deserving of that trust.

[ December 09, 2011, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

Greg Ambrosius
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WCOFF bankruptcy

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:28 am

Trust is all we have Glenn. I totally agree with you.

Let's not allow WCOFF to turn ourselves on each other. That's not the basis of my post. I said this was a bad business plan run by bad business people/decisions and it should be a story on that, not a bad industry. The industry didn't cause WCOFF's problems. Honestly, had Dustin and Jesse left the WCOFF prize pool at $200,000 and sellouts at 720 teams each year they would have made money instead of lost money. Had they not ventured into baseball, they wouldn't have that big hit to absorb. Had the NFL not had a lockout....well, the money would have continued to flow in to live for another day.

There's no finger pointing from me to the players. It's me asking ESPN to do a story on a business gone bad, not an industry gone bad or even a segment of the industry gone bad.
Founder, National Fantasy Football Championship & National Fantasy Baseball Championship
Twitter: @GregAmbrosius

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