WCOFF bankruptcy

DoubleG · Post by **DoubleG** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:32 am

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

The one positive is that people that watch will know they need to be careful. I think this can be looked at however you want. Is it good for the NFFC and FFPC? No, certainly not. Is it good that people are aware so they don't get screwed like me and so many others have? Probably so. So I do see that as a positive. As for goverment intervention and possible changing of laws. Quite frankly, who could argue that should happen with so many people getting money stolen.? Obviously I don't want that to happen, but I certainly couldn't argue them doing that with all that has taken place over the years.
perhaps one of the best things i've ever seen you post.

Ted's Cracked Head · Post by **Ted's Cracked Head** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:48 am

Reference the talk about regulation of this industry, it won't matter if it is high stakes or not. Paying 1 dollar or 25,000 dollars to play is the same thing when it comes to the law. The HS aspect is a relatively small piece of the pie in fantasy sports. Yes. it makes for a more compelling story but when it comes to legislation or oversight, the dollar amount matters not.

If they go after this industry, it would have to be a sweeping move that would cripple a billion dollar industry and a move that would include ESPN, CBS and every other site that charges an entrance fee and pays out prizes. Even the NFL isn't stupid or smug enough to let that happen. They also know their game and future growth depends on this industry.

Will individual states take action to limit the exposure for their own constituents? This is fairly likely but sweeping federal action, I doubt it.

DoubleG · Post by **DoubleG** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:53 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
These other contests that defaulted were not live high-stakes events: AFFL.com, FantasyJungle.com, SportsBuff, Rapid Draft, FFOC. They all were different price points, different models, different owners with different bad business models and business practices. Let's not lump all of those defaults into the HSFF bucket. These were BAD BUSINESSES, not the result of a bad industry. Greg,
While you are technically correct, the gist that the average viewer will get is people lost a lot of money (they legitimately won) playing fantasy football. all those failed businesses show that it has been easy to rip customers off in the fantasy football marketplace.

[ December 09, 2011, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: DoubleG ]

Team Legacy · Post by **Team Legacy** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:09 am

Something that was said to me off camera,

"We might not look great in this, I mean here we have an ESPN magazine story, Suzy Kolber up here presenting the check, several other on-air personalities playing in the contest, Kuselias, etc.. but it's a story that needs to be told."

From speaking with the producer, I think they generally feel a little bad about ever being involved in this mess.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:10 am

Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
These other contests that defaulted were not live high-stakes events: AFFL.com, FantasyJungle.com, SportsBuff, Rapid Draft, FFOC. They all were different price points, different models, different owners with different bad business models and business practices. Let's not lump all of those defaults into the HSFF bucket. These were BAD BUSINESSES, not the result of a bad industry. Greg,
While you are technically correct, the gist that the average viewer will get is people lost a lot of money (they legitimately won) playing fantasy football. all those failed businesses show that it has been easy to rip customers off in the fantasy football marketplace. [/QUOTE]Oh, I totally agree and gambler is right it casts a bad light on THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY. Not just HSFF, but ALL GAMES. Hell, if you list these five games and how much has been unpaid to fantasy winners, it tells the entire story. It's embarrassing for us as an industry.

We started the Fantasy Sports Players Association in 1999 to protect fantasy players from just this. Game companies weren't paying prizes and we felt players needed to be protected. We regulated ourselves, but it's obvious nobody is watching over anyone these days.

It's terrible, but let's concentrate on the players. Nobody was affected more than those players who gave their money in entry fees, won prize money and got nothing in return. 450+ players were unpaid totalling more than $1 million. I hope that somehow, someway they get paid what they earned.

alanr824 · Post by **alanr824** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:17 am

Originally posted by Silver and Black:
Reference the talk about regulation of this industry, it won't matter if it is high stakes or not. Paying 1 dollar or 25,000 dollars to play is the same thing when it comes to the law. The HS aspect is a relatively small piece of the pie in fantasy sports. Yes. it makes for a more compelling story but when it comes to legislation or oversight, the dollar amount matters not.

If they go after this industry, it would have to be a sweeping move that would cripple a billion dollar industry and a move that would include ESPN, CBS and every other site that charges an entrance fee and pays out prizes. Even the NFL isn't stupid or smug enough to let that happen. They also know their game and future growth depends on this industry.

Will individual states take action to limit the exposure for their own constituents? This is fairly likely but sweeping federal action, I doubt it. This statement is very true, by law. So, anyone who thinks of the government regulating HSFF, it is NOT going to happen. $1 or $5,000, they cannot regulate one without the other, and the government will not regulate the entire fantasy sports industry. Sure, WCOFF is not good press, but those in the HSFF industry already know about the WCOFF story, so yes, it will hurt newcomers from coming in, but not to any extreme. The fantasy industry is huge and will only continue to grow. We all need to be cautious, but this is a wake up call for those of us investing a lot of money in this hobby. I feel horrible for those who are out any money at all. No one is happy about that, other than a few selfish individuals who are just glad its not them. I disagree that this story will shine a bad light on the ENTIRE industry. Do you think there will be a lot of people that watch the story, who are fantasy fanatics, like most of us, that will decide... well I am not going to play fantasy football anymore because of an ESPN story about WCOFF?

No one knows exactly what will be covered in this story, whether the NFFC or FFPC will be mentioned or not. But either way, I truly believe, that 99% of the fantasy players will be back, but will just be a little more cautious. We have all been cheated, one way or another, in life. My wife cheated on me... but do you think I don't want another woman in my life? Yes, but I will be cautious. I use this comparison, because I love fantasy football almost as much as I love women. Its in our blood. Some of us might lose the passion temporarily, because of getting screwed over and I don't blame you and some maybe even permanently. But, the passion doesnt go away. You won because you accomplished something that thousands of others wanted but couldn't get. Having that feeling is something you will want again, though for some of us, it might take a while to trust again.

[ December 09, 2011, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Al R G ]

joetreff · Post by **joetreff** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:27 am

I love fantasy football almost as much as I love women.Are you entering this year's fantasy woman draft? I'm drafting at the end of the first and looking at Anne Hathaway or possibly Kate Middleton if she falls. Do you think Jolie is over-hyped?

Sack · Post by **Sack** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:31 am

One small thing that gets lost in this whole mess is that the percentage of people that won money in each established league from WCOFF was 2/12.

Those that participated and lost, paid there money and lost. So 10 out of 12 people in each league aren't as upset as they would have been should they have won money in WCOFF. Considering that WCOFF never paid the winners, I wonder if those that participated and LOST should also have a claim? The public outcry was actually less that it COULD have been. Think back to September/March for there drafts when the doors flew open. Everybody that walked in to participate is a victim in my eyes. Understand, I take NOTHING away from those that won - they deserve those winnings. But those that paid and lost should also have some claim if nothing was ever paid out.

I hurt for each and every player, it stains the games we enjoy playing. I hope they find justice.

Ted's Cracked Head · Post by **Ted's Cracked Head** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:52 am

One small thing that gets lost in this whole mess is that the percentage of people that won money in each established league from WCOFF was 2/12.

Those that participated and lost, paid there money and lost. So 10 out of 12 people in each league aren't as upset as they would have been should they have won money in WCOFF. Considering that WCOFF never paid the winners, I wonder if those that participated and LOST should also have a claim? The public outcry was actually less that it COULD have been. Think back to September/March for there drafts when the doors flew open. Everybody that walked in to participate is a victim in my eyes. Understand, I take NOTHING away from those that won - they deserve those winnings. But those that paid and lost should also have some claim if nothing was ever paid out.

I hurt for each and every player, it stains the games we enjoy playing. I hope they find justice. I am not so sure that all 12 of 12 in each league have not been harmed.

If these leagues were offered and it can be found that there was no intent to pay, then I would think that all players who paid to play have a claim for their entry fees and not just those who were not paid winnings?

I have not played there for the past few years but if I paid to play football in 2010 or baseball in 2011, I would want to be listed as a creditor to try and get my entry fees back.

Disclaimer: I have no legal background to support this but I would ask one if I was a participant. Yes, I know that it is unlikely that anyone will get paid but I would want to be on that list if there was even a small chance of restitution.

[ December 09, 2011, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Silver and Black ]

bald is beautiful · Post by **bald is beautiful** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:17 pm

Originally posted by DoubleG:
quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:
If they need to regulate anything, it's the reporting of revenue and the paying of prize money. But that should be the easy part and we don't need the government involved to help there. Each year you take in money and pay out prizes in full and then you move onto the next year.
i didn't play there this year, but does anyone know if the FFPC is continuing with their practice of NOT issuing 1099's for prize money that winners choose to "roll over"? [/QUOTE]Why don't you just ask Alex instead of continuing to bring it up in this thread?