Week 6 Top 30
-
CC's Desperados
- Posts: 895
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:00 pm
- Contact:
Week 6 Top 30
The wise guys are always looking for that extra edge. Bidding on draft spots, no way, that might work for the home league and be interesting. It has no place in this format. NONE!!!! You have a group of guys who go back and forth on the message board. Where are the other 185 owners? They put their $1250 for a shot at $100,000. You have a group of wise guys, and if they get the right draft position, and a little luck with injuries and schedule. They would have an edge over the average owner. The more complex the more thought. The more work it is, the less desirable for the average guy. If you want the pool to grow, you need to draw from the fantasy world where everyone thinks they have a shot. Our jobs as fantasy owners are to evalute the rules, scoring, and players and come up with a plan to win!! Everything about this game is luck: Draft position, Schedule(real and fantasy), bye weeks, injuries, never mind the yellow flags!!
-
Gordon Gekko
- Posts: 7222
- Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:00 pm
Week 6 Top 30
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
Bidding on draft spots, no way, that might work for the home league and be interesting. It has no place in this format. NONE!!!! why not? because people won't understand the process?
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
You have a group of wise guys, and if they get the right draft position, and a little luck with injuries and schedule. They would have an edge over the average owner. others are saying that draft position does NOT matter. do you think it matters?
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
The more complex the more thought. The more work it is, the less desirable for the average guy. I guess the Free Agent blind bidding process should be removed? It can be very confusing to the average owner who never used it before.
[ October 19, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]
Bidding on draft spots, no way, that might work for the home league and be interesting. It has no place in this format. NONE!!!! why not? because people won't understand the process?
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
You have a group of wise guys, and if they get the right draft position, and a little luck with injuries and schedule. They would have an edge over the average owner. others are saying that draft position does NOT matter. do you think it matters?
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
The more complex the more thought. The more work it is, the less desirable for the average guy. I guess the Free Agent blind bidding process should be removed? It can be very confusing to the average owner who never used it before.
[ October 19, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]
Is my "weekend warrior" prep better than your prep?
-
dgamblnman
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:00 pm
Week 6 Top 30
I believe the most exciting part of fantasy football is drafting. That is the drawing point. WW is almost secondary. So comparing the both for a bidding system will have different effects. If you complicate the draft, you will lose some of the public. That is why the current BB is not a problem, because everyone is there to draft and tehn adjust to the BB system.
-
CC's Desperados
- Posts: 895
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:00 pm
- Contact:
Week 6 Top 30
Gekko, You can even compare bidding on free agent with bidding on draft spots. You have all week look at the players and make an educated guess at what to bid on. They are two different subjects. Sure draft position matter, but you can only play the hand your dealt. I'm here to compete. I'll play from anywhere.
-
Gordon Gekko
- Posts: 7222
- Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:00 pm
Week 6 Top 30
Originally posted by CC's Desperados:
Sure draft position matter, but you can only play the hand your dealt. for this kind of money, i'd like to make sure the hands dealt are as equal as possible to begin with.
with blind bidding for draft slots, if you want a good draft slot, you need to give up some FA$. If you want to keep your FA$, you get a "lesser" draft slot. it evens the playing field.
i understand there is an initial resistance to change until you understand how it works, and see it work. If you only knew the power of the Dark Side.
Sure draft position matter, but you can only play the hand your dealt. for this kind of money, i'd like to make sure the hands dealt are as equal as possible to begin with.
with blind bidding for draft slots, if you want a good draft slot, you need to give up some FA$. If you want to keep your FA$, you get a "lesser" draft slot. it evens the playing field.
i understand there is an initial resistance to change until you understand how it works, and see it work. If you only knew the power of the Dark Side.
Is my "weekend warrior" prep better than your prep?
Week 6 Top 30
Originally posted by Tom Kessenich:
What it boils down to as far as I'm concerned is if you believe that you can win a championship from any draft position (which is what I believe), why create a new process to determine draft order in the first place? Just curious. Tom,
It's a little frustrating that my point keeps sliding right past most people that disagree with slot bidding ...
I don't dispute (never did) that someone can win from any draft slot.
As such, I completely agree with you if the questions are:
(1) is the game fair? (yes it is), and
(2) does any particular slot preclude you from winning? (no).
What John is posting is strong evidence of this. Which again, I don't dispute.
My point is this ...
If I develop a draft strategy to target certain players (which I do) I would like the opportunity to try to obtain a slot that fits my strategy.
If I am randomly assigned a slot which does not fit my strategy, that reduces my ability to go after the players that I want to draft.
example 1.
In the NFFC I wanted to draft either S Alexander or R Moss in rd 1 because I felt they were underrated relative to their expected draft position with Shaun expected to go 4-5, and Moss 7-8. So I wanted an early-to-mid pick. I also wanted a mid-to-late second rd because I believed Duce was underrated and I though I could get him there, or even early 3rd.
What happened? I get the 12 slot which left me the option of a group of guys I didn't care for, or I take Duce in rd 1 rather than late 2 or early 3. Well, I take Duce and I get berated for taking him #1. I can live with that, but it clearly put me at a disadvantage when I could have had him late 2 or early 3.
example 2.
Mid-season draft. I pay up to get the #4 slot to draft Culpepper. I get him, he's kickin @#$, I am happy. If he goes down I lose. That is the risk I wanted to take. If I lose it's because my strategy did'nt pay off. That is what it SHOULD be about.
If the guy that drafted Culpepper in rd 3 wins it all was he good, or was he lucky that the right player(s) just happened to fall him? Now I understand that from a business standpoint, you don't really care whether the guy was good or lucky so far as the contest is perceived as fair.
But as a player that wants to compete on skill not luck, I do care, and I'm not alone.
example 3.
Over to the NFBC. I was assigned the #1 slot. Didn't want it, didn't fit my strategy. Probably 10 other guys did. I wasn't happy, neither were they. Would've been a better experience with bidding.
Rounding back to the original question ... does the NFFC afford the opportunity to win from any draft position. Absolutely.
Is a high stakes game whose implied goal is to crown the best FF player the winner better off using rules that allow for more strategy and less luck. Absolutely!
The auction leagues really are the better format for determining skill. I understand they aren't mainstream enough yet to pull the numbers you need. But this slight variation moves one small step in that direction.
In my opinion, its not significant enough to scare anyone way, while substantially improving one of the most unfair elements of the game (denying someone the right to execute a particular strategy).
Go ahead and disagree with me if you like, but please let me know that you actually get my point!
[ October 19, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]
What it boils down to as far as I'm concerned is if you believe that you can win a championship from any draft position (which is what I believe), why create a new process to determine draft order in the first place? Just curious. Tom,
It's a little frustrating that my point keeps sliding right past most people that disagree with slot bidding ...
I don't dispute (never did) that someone can win from any draft slot.
As such, I completely agree with you if the questions are:
(1) is the game fair? (yes it is), and
(2) does any particular slot preclude you from winning? (no).
What John is posting is strong evidence of this. Which again, I don't dispute.
My point is this ...
If I develop a draft strategy to target certain players (which I do) I would like the opportunity to try to obtain a slot that fits my strategy.
If I am randomly assigned a slot which does not fit my strategy, that reduces my ability to go after the players that I want to draft.
example 1.
In the NFFC I wanted to draft either S Alexander or R Moss in rd 1 because I felt they were underrated relative to their expected draft position with Shaun expected to go 4-5, and Moss 7-8. So I wanted an early-to-mid pick. I also wanted a mid-to-late second rd because I believed Duce was underrated and I though I could get him there, or even early 3rd.
What happened? I get the 12 slot which left me the option of a group of guys I didn't care for, or I take Duce in rd 1 rather than late 2 or early 3. Well, I take Duce and I get berated for taking him #1. I can live with that, but it clearly put me at a disadvantage when I could have had him late 2 or early 3.
example 2.
Mid-season draft. I pay up to get the #4 slot to draft Culpepper. I get him, he's kickin @#$, I am happy. If he goes down I lose. That is the risk I wanted to take. If I lose it's because my strategy did'nt pay off. That is what it SHOULD be about.
If the guy that drafted Culpepper in rd 3 wins it all was he good, or was he lucky that the right player(s) just happened to fall him? Now I understand that from a business standpoint, you don't really care whether the guy was good or lucky so far as the contest is perceived as fair.
But as a player that wants to compete on skill not luck, I do care, and I'm not alone.
example 3.
Over to the NFBC. I was assigned the #1 slot. Didn't want it, didn't fit my strategy. Probably 10 other guys did. I wasn't happy, neither were they. Would've been a better experience with bidding.
Rounding back to the original question ... does the NFFC afford the opportunity to win from any draft position. Absolutely.
Is a high stakes game whose implied goal is to crown the best FF player the winner better off using rules that allow for more strategy and less luck. Absolutely!
The auction leagues really are the better format for determining skill. I understand they aren't mainstream enough yet to pull the numbers you need. But this slight variation moves one small step in that direction.
In my opinion, its not significant enough to scare anyone way, while substantially improving one of the most unfair elements of the game (denying someone the right to execute a particular strategy).
Go ahead and disagree with me if you like, but please let me know that you actually get my point!
[ October 19, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]
-
CC's Desperados
- Posts: 895
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:00 pm
- Contact:
Week 6 Top 30
So for this kind of money, you are looking for an edge? What's equal? If you want it equal, you can pick a new team each week. How much fun would that be?
Week 6 Top 30
i will chime in...
i think for a fantasy football tournament like this to flourish you need the marginal fantasy owner to join. we all know there are diehards in this league.. or guys who consider themselves borderline "professional" fantasy footballers... if you make the process overly complicated you are going to scare off the guy who is thinking about taking a step into this level of league.. from years of playing with his pals for fun...
i think a good fantasy football owner can come up with his own draft strategy based on the slot he draws... i am not totally against a way to "PICK" your draft spot.. but i do not think having random draft spots makes this kind of fantasy football contest "RANDOM"...
i bet everyone in this league has played TONS of random draft slot events in his past.. and believes that all the success he had while winning all those leagues was due to being a great football mind, not just random luck...
i think for a fantasy football tournament like this to flourish you need the marginal fantasy owner to join. we all know there are diehards in this league.. or guys who consider themselves borderline "professional" fantasy footballers... if you make the process overly complicated you are going to scare off the guy who is thinking about taking a step into this level of league.. from years of playing with his pals for fun...
i think a good fantasy football owner can come up with his own draft strategy based on the slot he draws... i am not totally against a way to "PICK" your draft spot.. but i do not think having random draft spots makes this kind of fantasy football contest "RANDOM"...
i bet everyone in this league has played TONS of random draft slot events in his past.. and believes that all the success he had while winning all those leagues was due to being a great football mind, not just random luck...
-
JerseyPaul
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:00 pm
Week 6 Top 30
Originally posted by Vega$ Gambler$:
I believe the most exciting part of fantasy football is drafting. That is the drawing point. WW is almost secondary. So comparing the both for a bidding system will have different effects. If you complicate the draft, you will lose some of the public. That is why the current BB is not a problem, because everyone is there to draft and tehn adjust to the BB system. Sorry Vegas, but not correct. Drafting is fun but losing is not fun. The perception of drafting from an inferior slot spoils some of the fun, at least it did for me.
WW is incredibly important. In the NY Auction I had 2 good RBs but 1 more WR would really help. I picked up Colbert with a big bid. Then my RB byes were coming due and I picked up Droughns with another big bid. Now I sit 3-3 but 1st in points in that league (2nd overall). The extra points will (hopefully) get me to the playoffs without worrying about my 2 unlucky less than 1 point losses.
What Gordan wants to avoid is losing players that might believe..."hmm, with so many teams I can't win unless I have a good draft position, so maybe I shouldn't take the chance and I'll play somewhere else.".
With Gordan's plan the benefit of the good draft slot is offset by the loss of bid dollars. Spend a lot of FAAB to get slot 3 and you might not have a chance to get both Colbert and Droughns. Those dollars might cost you one desirable free agent and/or give you less dollars to block the other guys going after the player they need.
If you look at Gordan's analysis, every top team went RB/RB/RB except for 2 that got Culpepper. You CAN'T go RB/RB/RB from the late slots. By 3.12 all the RBs are gone. Fourteen teams, about 24 playable RBs. Do the math. That means no bye week coverage and if you're lucky you can get a handcuff or else you have no injury covergae either.
The alternative, as I have discussed on other threads, is to lower the starting RB requirement to 1 RB and increase the number of flex players.
A third alternative is to go to 12 teams, qualify 4 of those teams based on record and points and have a playoff in week 12 to get into the final round (top record versus 2nd best points and top points versus 2nd best record). Qualifying 4 in the regular season will keep everybody interested...cut down on abandoned teams (either truly abandoned or emotionally abandoned). I understand the lower percentage of the pot available for top prizes but other leagues seem to be able to deal with that issue.
I also understand the 2 losers being really pissed, especially if they lose after leading the lead the whole season. But that's playoffs. (Will the Yankees blow this thing?)
For me the issue is clear. To get mass appeal does not require simplicity, it requires that every player feel that he can win as he sits down at the drafting table. Nobody has an edge in the World Series of Poker, only the edge your ability gives you.
I believe the most exciting part of fantasy football is drafting. That is the drawing point. WW is almost secondary. So comparing the both for a bidding system will have different effects. If you complicate the draft, you will lose some of the public. That is why the current BB is not a problem, because everyone is there to draft and tehn adjust to the BB system. Sorry Vegas, but not correct. Drafting is fun but losing is not fun. The perception of drafting from an inferior slot spoils some of the fun, at least it did for me.
WW is incredibly important. In the NY Auction I had 2 good RBs but 1 more WR would really help. I picked up Colbert with a big bid. Then my RB byes were coming due and I picked up Droughns with another big bid. Now I sit 3-3 but 1st in points in that league (2nd overall). The extra points will (hopefully) get me to the playoffs without worrying about my 2 unlucky less than 1 point losses.
What Gordan wants to avoid is losing players that might believe..."hmm, with so many teams I can't win unless I have a good draft position, so maybe I shouldn't take the chance and I'll play somewhere else.".
With Gordan's plan the benefit of the good draft slot is offset by the loss of bid dollars. Spend a lot of FAAB to get slot 3 and you might not have a chance to get both Colbert and Droughns. Those dollars might cost you one desirable free agent and/or give you less dollars to block the other guys going after the player they need.
If you look at Gordan's analysis, every top team went RB/RB/RB except for 2 that got Culpepper. You CAN'T go RB/RB/RB from the late slots. By 3.12 all the RBs are gone. Fourteen teams, about 24 playable RBs. Do the math. That means no bye week coverage and if you're lucky you can get a handcuff or else you have no injury covergae either.
The alternative, as I have discussed on other threads, is to lower the starting RB requirement to 1 RB and increase the number of flex players.
A third alternative is to go to 12 teams, qualify 4 of those teams based on record and points and have a playoff in week 12 to get into the final round (top record versus 2nd best points and top points versus 2nd best record). Qualifying 4 in the regular season will keep everybody interested...cut down on abandoned teams (either truly abandoned or emotionally abandoned). I understand the lower percentage of the pot available for top prizes but other leagues seem to be able to deal with that issue.
I also understand the 2 losers being really pissed, especially if they lose after leading the lead the whole season. But that's playoffs. (Will the Yankees blow this thing?)
For me the issue is clear. To get mass appeal does not require simplicity, it requires that every player feel that he can win as he sits down at the drafting table. Nobody has an edge in the World Series of Poker, only the edge your ability gives you.
-
CC's Desperados
- Posts: 895
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:00 pm
- Contact:
Week 6 Top 30
Nobody has an edge in the World Series of Poker, only the edge your ability gives you.
Last I checked, every hand is random in poker. This has nothing to do with Fantasy Football. It sound like you have your own rules, maybe you sounds run your own league.
Last I checked, every hand is random in poker. This has nothing to do with Fantasy Football. It sound like you have your own rules, maybe you sounds run your own league.